About the Episode:
Jeff Fulkerson tells us the story of how he got inspired to build his business, by growing out his hair. Learn how he has mastered website design, the use of empty real estate in google, and more to bring useful and beautiful websites to his clients.
About Jeff:
Once upon a time, I grew out my hair and learned I had a fro. The fro was great and everyone loved it. It gave me more status and recognition and made me stand out. A website is a lot like my form. It can make a big difference in your image and in the perception of others. That’s why I’m now trying to do for others as the fro did for me, through website design for small businesses. I’m a programmer by trade, but I’d consider myself more a jack of all trades and a master of none.
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Everybody has a website these days, even a six year old kid has a website, and I think everyone needs to understand that not all websites are good. In this day and age, you need to have a good website even if you’re that six year old kid with a lemonade stand. Today you’re going to want to share this episode with at least three people, because you’re going to learn a lot, get a lot of info on how to increase your online presence in the right way, so you don’t look stupid. My guest today is on a mission to rid the world of terrible websites, he’s a jack of all trades, master of none, his quote is: don’t let your website be just another crew cut, go with the FRO, here is Jeff Fulkerson or Jeffro, what’s up?
Hey, Rick, how’s it going today?
It’s going really good. I hope you appreciate the intro.
That was amazing, thank you.
Everybody needs social media accounts, but it’s still the case where you have a link in your bio, and that link is going to take you to a website or a link tree that takes you to a multitude of websites. You still have to have a website, but it blows my mind. Jeff, help me out with this, why are there still so many bad websites?
That’s a great question. I think a lot of people just think they can get something for free, right? They don’t want to pay for things if they don’t have to, and they don’t understand just how important a good website is. So once they get that free website page builder from GoDaddy or wherever, they think it’s good enough. They check the box and move on, but they’re missing out on so many opportunities when they do that.
Agreed. You mentioned the free site from GoDaddy, what if they feel like they would spend a little money, because there’s other places out there like Wix and also Squarespace, and a few others. Those are some of the bigger ones that are $7 a month or so, which is still close to free but it’s not free. You’re right, a lot of people won’t even spend $7 a month, thinking they can get this for free. How does this compare to GoDaddy, are you shoving them aside, do they suck?
It depends who you talk to, there’s some people who have very strong feelings on that. I will say that if you’re just starting out and your budget is an issue, it’s better to have a website on Squarespace or Wix, than nothing at all. Just don’t stay there, that’s the main thing because it’s a stepping stone. When you move on to a fully professionally done website, it’s not just made to look good, it’s made to be optimized.
On Squarespace, they have templates. You can make a website that looks decent, but it doesn’t matter how good it looks, if nobody ever sees it. There’s more to it than that. Professional design is one level, and there’s also the messaging on the website to make sure you’re talking to your prospects that are visiting, and correctly speaking to their pains and converting them into customers. Then there’s other factors such as optimizing for the search engines, making sure that you’re going to come up when people search for certain keywords or phrases in Google. Otherwise, no one’s ever going to see it and it’s not going to do anything. You need to do it well, do it properly, so that it actually works for your business and gives you an ROI, as opposed to just being another expense line item for $7.
Let’s dumb this down a little bit too because it’s not just a matter of throwing up some images, even having a good copy. For those who don’t know, copy is a marketing term, it is the text/words that’s on the page. If you have a good image, good copy, that’s still not enough because to your point Jeff, if nobody sees it, why does it even matter if it exists? There’s a lot more that goes into it because you’re talking about things like SEO, and that’s a buzzword that everybody knows right now. For those who don’t, what does that SEO mean?
SEO is search engine optimization.
Thank you.
You’re welcome. That just means you’re speaking to the search engine and telling it and helping it out. If someone searches for this keyword, “Hey search engine, show my site,” and they look at a bunch of other factors like how quickly does it load? Does the content shift as it’s loading and annoy people, do other sites with authority link to it, is it going to be a good result? You’re the person searching for a phrase, because ultimately Google wants to give good results to people, and it’s really good at figuring that out.
They do, if I google myself right now, Rick Jordan, I’m the whole first page on Google. There’s places, and this is what Jeff is talking about everyone, is that if you just throw a copy up there and you don’t help Google out.
If you Google me, Rick Jordan, you’ll see my name and the “home” then underneath that you’ll see a bio about myself. I had my site professionally done, and I have a whole branding team that does it. That way Google pulls this information. Our development team told Google that this is what you should show under here. Jeff, you’ve seen sites that are just like this, with no text underneath the title and they’re missing out on that real estate because they decided to use Squarespace or Wix.
Just because you don’t know what you don’t know. I’ve seen 1000s of websites that all say home in the title bar, but that doesn’t tell Google anything. If I’m searching for a home, I don’t want some guy’s blog, I want a residence to live in. I wouldn’t search for Rick Jordan if I’ve never heard of you, branded keywords like that. Don’t pay someone to make you rank for your own name. You want to pay someone to help you rank for cybersecurity expert, and then they will stumble across Rick Jordan. That’s how people search to find things that they don’t know about.
Yep, I like that. I know people are paying for Rick Jordan’s cybersecurity now as Google AdWords, which is pretty cool. They’re using my name to try to drive traffic to their site. That’s pretty fun.
That means you made it.
I guess! That was brought to me by one of my board members a little bit ago, but it was such an interesting moment that people are doing this on their site now. I understand why that is. Also because I do global media and that plays a part of it too. SEO is so important in the development of this because Google tracks even where that traffic is coming from to make sure the content on that page matches the previous site that’s linked to it to help it rank higher, correct?
Yeah, they’re trying to categorize all of that as much information as they can, they look at every possible piece of information to decide “Where should I rank this site? When should I show it?”
Yeah, let’s talk about entrepreneurship because FroBro Web Technologies started as a side hustle, is that correct?
Yes.
How did they end up where it’s at today? Why did you even start it to begin with? Let’s start there. Let’s take a trip back in time here.
I’ve always been building websites. I have loved computers and technology since I was young, building stuff in high school. I built my first computer and built websites for people back when just hand coding HTML was a thing. Over the years, I got better at it and some people asked me to make websites and I went with it. At a certain point I thought, this is kind of more fun than some of my other day jobs. I kept it there as a side hustle for a while, but I really had the opportunity to grow it over the past couple of years. I’ve been at home more and looking for better flexible work schedules and since it’s my own project, I can work on it whenever I want, however I want. I’ve just been working on building it up.
Your whole reason for getting into this is like Mike Rowe, remember Dirty Jobs Mike Rowe. There’s a quote from him and I’m probably slightly off, it’s “Why do you love so much that what you do?” “It’s not that I started that way. I found something that I was good at. Then I learned to love it. And then I got rich.” It’s like the progression of a good start, finding something that you’re really good at because odds are, if you’re really good at it, you probably have an interest in that, at least some aspect or another.
This is a little secret for everybody. I don’t think I’ve ever said this publicly. There was a time where I got really, really bored with IT work and cybersecurity because I felt like it is stupid. It’s just the problems, and all this other stuff but it took me, because I was good at it. That’s really the reason I got into it to begin with. Then I heard Mike speak at a conference, and I met him there too and I was asked about this. He helped shift my mindset in this to say “Why don’t you just find a way to love it.” I started looking beyond the tech, and what was going on every single day and I started looking at the people that were using the tech, and seeing how that was impacting their lives. A website in and of itself, let’s be straight up, it’s words on a screen or you look behind the curtain, and it’s code. Whoo. It’s not so much what it is, it’s what it can do for you which is the power.
There’s so many small businesses and medium businesses that are out there doing a good job for their customers that don’t have a good website, and so people don’t know them. They don’t get the recognition that they deserve either. That’s one of the things that I’m doing, is helping those companies get a professional presence that gives a great first impression online, so that customers see that and say, “Yes I want to work with that guy.”
Is there any difference between a traditional service oriented business or a brick and mortar versus e-commerce? Is there an importance across the board, depending on what industry you’re in, or other different needs for those types of things too?
There’s definitely different needs. As a service based company, they’re not going to have an E commerce piece most of the time, and so their website’s going to be mostly messaging to their prospective customer about what we do. This is why we’re good at it. This is why you should work with us.
Kind of like a sales tool?
Kind of, it’s your online billboard, it’s your online business card, whatever you want to call it. That’s your first impression though and it’s the central hub of all your marketing efforts. Any email signature, any business card you hand out, if you’re on a podcast, anywhere you go you drop your website and it all points back there. That’s why they have to present the company and the brand well, in order to actually do something for the company. If you’re an Ecommerce setup, then in addition to having products, you have to make the process streamline for the customer. Making it easy to pay for stuff in checkout, easy to browse and search, that’s something that a lot of third parties get really bad at. You can’t find things on the product while you’re searching on their websites, that all factors together, and back to SEO, the more content you have on there, whether it is a blog or a really descriptive article on your products, that tell people how to use it, why to use it, what it’s good for, that will help promote the site as well.
There’s different purposes, obviously for these things and how do you judge the success on any of these websites that it’s doing the job it’s supposed to?
It depends on the company, if it’s a service based company, you’re going to be either counting appointments made, phone calls and or emails that you get. Sometimes it’s a form that you submit on the page, and that’s all trackable if they click on the email on your site they came from here because you can set what the email subject is. Doing phone numbers is a little harder, but with more people on mobile, you can actually track if they clicked the phone link on your phone and that it just calls you directly. If someone’s on a desktop they’re not gonna do that. You can actually get a lot more information than you think.
Looking at the different purposes of these sites on the success, because you’re talking about what’s in that industry as traffic and conversion. First you started out by saying that, “It makes no difference whatsoever if nobody’s going to see it, that’s traffic.” Now you’re talking about the success of that, which is really the conversion of it, whether that’s measured in calls and clicks to a certain page or in contact forms, in products sold. That’s the conversion, whatever the outcome of that site is or that page, that’s the conversion part of it. To get them into your funnel or get them into some sort of transaction right then and there, and that can happen to it. What do you typically do with high ticket or low ticket items, when it comes to website design?
Whoever you ask, they’re going to give you different numbers of what a high ticket means. I tend to lean towards high ticket, like I said, all the different factors that play into it. That’s what I want to give you, I don’t want to give you a cheap website. I’d rather send you somewhere else if you say you’re coming to me and saying “Hey, I’ve got 1000 bucks, can you build me this website. Oh by the way, it needs to have a form and it needs to do this automation thing.” I’m responding with “No, go away or get a bigger budget that I can work with and we’ll make something good that will give you a return on investment.” We can talk about all the things you can track, that all plays into it, but if you are a commercial landscaper and your average job is $1500 and my new professional website for you can get you at least one new customer a month, you’re paid for real fast. If you start looking at it in those terms, instead of just nickel and dimming to $7 a month, instead of looking at what this I can do for you, you know you’re gonna miss out.
Are there any standard questions you ask, because I remember 10 years ago everyone was feeling like they needed a website now. We’ve never really done that in my firm, it was just because being an outsourced IT support at the time, they kind of think that you should because they don’t have any other resources. We would typically refer to them elsewhere, but the question I would always ask is, “Why do you want this done?” “We don’t have one and we just know that we should,” Times have changed a little bit in 10 years, but I’m certainly sure you probably still get some of that to where you think, “I don’t have a website yet so I probably should have one.”
I think if that is your mindset, you probably don’t realize the importance of it and you’re thinking of it just as, “Hey, I heard you’re supposed to have a website.” Of course you’re going to try and get it the cheapest way possible, because you don’t realize why it matters. I think one of the things I do when I sit down with a new customer to redesign their site, is I ask them as many questions as they can about their business, who their customers are, and what they’re trying to accomplish. Why they want to serve those people, why they’re different and I try to draw out as much as I can because that helps me then create the titles on the page and the messaging that we’re putting on there to really capture their brand and what they’re going for. To get the vibe that they want. I can give examples, but that’s the basic idea.
When you say you’re the jack of all trades, you really are that, you’re stepping into the territory. This is a distinctual difference because website design and development can be very, very different from branding, which is the messaging you’re talking about there too. It sounds like you crossover and intermingle, correct?
Yes, as much as I can. I think that’s been one of the skills that I’ve had over the years, I speak, technology, and computers because I studied computer science, but I also can understand and speak sales. When I was working for companies, I would often be the go-between because sales people say, “Oh yeah customer, we can do that no problem, it’ll be two weeks or whatever” and engineering is over here saying “No, that’s not easy at all, it’ll take months.” That’s kind of been a sweet spot for me, and I was working as a Technical Services Manager for a while. That go between was really helpful. In this sense, when I’m working on websites, I kind of span both sides to help the customer see both what we’re doing and why.I think that helps a lot of people understand where the value is.
Yes, let me ask you this, when was your fro born?
It was between sophomore and junior year of high school. Up to that point, I just had a flat top. It was easy to maintain . My mom always wanted me to grow my hair so I finally did over that summer. Turned out it was curly.
What did you have when you were a kid?
It was always a little boy’s cut or parted. It wasn’t long enough to start showing the curls. Once I grew it out, it was “Hey, I had a fro!” I decided to try it and people liked it, and people noticed it, and I quickly realized that “Hey, this sets me apart and makes me different, makes me stand out, people in the halls in high school, reach out and touch it as I’m walking by, and I don’t know who they are, but okay.” Now I can draw that parallel to websites because a good website is like a fro, it makes you stand out. You’re different, it captures attention, and it sets you apart.
Do you think that the girls really wanted to run their fingers through that thing too?
Yes, they did.
Why do you think that is, just because of the freaking good head of hair just because it’s different, unique?
Probably all of that, and maybe because it looks soft and because girls like soft fluffy things. I was at the beach one time, walking on the boardwalk, two girls on bikes going the opposite direction, one of them almost crashed her bike trying to reach out and touch it as she rode by. I don’t know who these people are.
That’s awesome. Is that a thing when you meet new clients now to your prospects, it’s like you just gotta touch it one time?
I can start incorporating that into the meetings.
You should if you sign this deal today, this is the urgency piece of your offer. If you signed this deal today, you’re gonna get to touch my hair.
In math class, a girl behind me liked to hide markers and things in it.
Did you still feel that?
Yes, I did.
Yeah, we took a big left turn.
Alright, let’s get back on track.
Awesome, at least you have something to take notes with later on. How does this compare to social media and the need between, Is there one that’s more worthy of attention these days than the other?
I’ll say it depends on the company, because it depends where your customers are, if you’re targeting a younger demographic, that is on social media, absolutely you should be on their posting with hashtags that they follow. If they’re an older demographic, maybe email would be a better place to focus your energy, or if it’s entrepreneurs that listen to podcasts, get on other podcasts or speak in front of professional associations that meet in person once a month if you’re trying to talk to architects or tax professionals. You really need to focus on where your audience is, I think a lot of times we all get caught up in having to post on social media. They say you need to post this many times a week, but if your people aren’t there. You’re wasting your time.
There’s different types of websites these days too, because you’re talking about some being sales to others being e-commerce giants in multiple pages. I’m loving some of the really clean websites, like a service industry who do not sell online but they have to have that presence. They’ve got this one page site that is just beautiful, and just kind of just gives the emotional story of who they are and then it sucks people in that way. It almost complements social media that way and vice versa. It’s amazing. How do you best suggest those industries? Because there’s some that are products and they think that they’re going to make it overnight, that they’re going to make $7 million with their new E-commerce website, which typically isn’t the case unless you’ve got a huge ad budget right off the gate. Where do you start? Because you talked about budgeting too, it can go from $0 all the way up to six figures with a good website, where does somebody start?
I’d say for a service based company, they could start at $3,500 to $5,000 range for just a simple redesign of 1-4 pages that are basic images and copies with nothing too fancy, maybe a form or two. If you’re doing e-commerce, it just goes up. But that’s the first step, is getting the site built. Doing password messaging, doing SEO and design, make sure that all lines up and branding, and then once you push it live. That’s not the end. When you do SEO and ad run ads and all this stuff, that promotes your company and drives traffic to that site. You can’t just stop there.
Yeah, I hear you and that’s so true. You need to understand that’s not the finish line, that’s not the popping the champagne cork moment. Sure, the project is done but it’s almost like a website is a milestone in the overall project of generating your sales and getting the job done to begin with. I’m curious, where you see this going for you because you’re a solopreneur right now? Do you see yourself doing websites yourself for the next 10 years?
No, I’ve already got a plan built out for how I do these sites in terms of who does what part, in terms of bringing on additional partners whether they’re contractors or eventually full time, so that way I’m not doing every site myself. I have additional things, as I’m adding more services to my company, I started out just web design, but now I’ve also got SEO, Ad Management, and I’m slowly building it up with my goal having two sides. One in terms of FroBro, I want to provide a solution that does everything, so if you’re a business owner and feel, “I know I need to go to a website, I’ve heard you talk about, just do it for me.” Then I will handle fast hosting maintenance, security scans and backups. Then, SEO, “I’ll take care of it. I’m your web guy. You don’t have to think about it.”In terms of growing the business, yes, I’ve got tons of ideas for additional ways I can do that and add additional value to my customers. Whether that’s partnering with other solutions and whatnot.
I’m relating it back to when I started my MSP years back and it’s cool because it sounds like you’re willing to reinvest in your business and develop new services too. That’s a key point to scaling, and I’m gonna be straight up with you, you have a long road ahead of you. It’s cool because this is a little bit of a coaching moment too, scaling is a good goal, it’s a really, really good goal. It’s not something where you’re going to be making $300,000 in your own personal wallet. This is important for everybody listening too, because how old is Fro-Bro?
Six or seven years.
That was about the tipping point for me too. I had this conversation with my cousin the other day too at a fall festival, because he’s doing hot sauce and it’s amazing. He’s 12 years old now, and it was that tipping point of around six to seven years into it, is when things really started to accelerate for him. You’re right there and I’m excited for you because you’re starting to build out these other services, you’re starting to get more clients, you’re starting to put other people in place to do the work for you because as a business owner, that’s your first step. Letting go and have other people actually do the work, so you can focus almost completely on growth. It’s cool you already know how to do the work, which is awesome because now you can put people in place to do that work for you and do it your way too.
That’s a big piece is making sure it’s still done the right way, as you scale so I don’t turn around and find that my teams built these really terrible websites, that would be bad.
Yeah, that would be bad. The one question though, is anybody you bring on, are you going to make them grow a fro?
You know it’s tempting, but I think just gotta be on brand.
Everybody’s on camera these days.. I think everybody’s got to stay on brand though. That’s gonna be the thing, it’s like you’re interview questions like, “Would you be willing to grow your hair? For a guy sitting there bald and he can’t. “No problem, we got a uniform and included a wig, you’re good to go.”
I’m excited for you. I can’t wait to see what happens. Thanks for the conversation today. Check out Jeff’s website!
I actually put up a page for your listeners, you’ll be able to set up a call with me and I’ll do a 30 minute call to talk about your website, any questions you want and ways to improve it. You don’t have to work with me, you can take those tips and improve your site on your own.
That’s amazing, thank you, that’s a beautiful gift to everybody too. I appreciate your insight because this is a good starting point, we get a lot of young entrepreneurs listening that don’t understand this. They just know they have a good service, a good product and a lot of heart, and they need you to help get the presence straight. Awesome. Jeff, thanks for being my man.
Yeah, thanks for having me Rick appreciate it.
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