About the Episode:
Mark Goulston joins us today to share his tips on accepting apologies from people in your past, present or not. Learn how you can get out of your own way to strive for emotional intelligence.
Marshall Goldsmith MG100 Coach, Founding Member Newsweek Expert Forum, Former UCLA professor of psychiatry, FBI/police hostage negotiation trainer, suicide prevention specialist with no suicides over 25 years, inventor of Surgical Empathy, Design Thinking Leadership, author/co-author nine books with book, “Just Listen,” becoming the top book on listening in the world. Host, My Wakeup Call, podcast.
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Today’s an extra special treat, because I was just on an amazing show, My Wake Up Call, hosted by a new friend of mine who joined us today. He’s amazing, I just want to say that and with that type of preface here, I’m going to ask you to share this with three people today, because the way that we’re going to dive into a lot of things today is going to touch your heart,, and here’s why. Mark is originally a UCLA Professor of Psychiatry, for over 25 years. He’s also a former FBI and police hostage negotiation trainer, which. I want to ask him about that too, and his expertise has been forged and proven in the crucible of real life high stakes situations. He has been a facilitator for Fortune 500 companies, and is currently living in Los Angeles, California. Check out his podcast My Wake Up Call, and we’ll talk about that more at the end. Mark Goulston, welcome my friend.
We are becoming friends, and it’s so great to be on.
I agree, thank you so much. That’s how I felt after the moments we shared on your show. It was an instant bonding for me, and we were able to reach each other’s hearts, as we both cried together on your show.
Can you share any recalled moments as we go into this?
Yes, absolutely, and I’d love to thank you. There are some things I’d love to ask you because being the former police hostage negotiation training, a suicide prevention specialist, and now you have your book is Just Listen.
Some of the moments that I remember from being on your show were talking about my dad, and I still have my homework assignment, so this is kind of a spoiler alert. The Papa, Can You Hear Me is a solo episode that I will be recording. I remember as we were going through the two sides of me, I have a really energetic, confident side, as I get up on stage or as I’m hosting the show. I can come in strong like an African elephant. Then on the flip side of that, even with the same animal, there is a soft and tender side. You reference that as the oxytocin side, and just the blending of those together or leaning more on the oxytocin side of me, that part of my personality is where I’ve always felt that I’m actually stronger, I’m able to reach more people, rather than coming out of the gate super aggressive and energetic. This is pretty much what everybody expects these days, from people who are on stage. It’s that persona, that larger than life, that big ego. I was able to open up about my dad. I really appreciated our conversation from diving into that side of things, and it was amazing I opened my heart to you.
I’ve had a series of episodes in My Wake Up call, with larger than life people, and I made an observation to them, I’d say “If I was in an audience listening to you, I would be impressed but I would say, he can do it because he has courage. He can do it, because he’s larger than life,” I’d be impressed and entertained, but I might leave thinking, it won’t work for me because I don’t have his courage, and one of the things I’ve been asking people on My Wake Up Call is “The problem with that is, if you want people to get results, and they think you’re getting results because you have this strong persona, but you may actually reach more people if you can share things that you need to get better at.” I’ve interviewed some amazing people, and I say “What is something you can get better at?” Some will say, “When you look under the hood, it’s a mess. When you look inside my own stuff that I keep juggling as fast as I can, and thinking I’m going to be dropping plates everywhere, I don’t know how I do it but whenever it’s game time, everything comes together.” Then there’s also a theme, and I’m bringing it up because of Papa, can you hear me suggestions. Some of them have been saying, “I don’t get emotionally close to people. I like people. I don’t dwell on it, because I am filled with activity, I’m filled with goals, I’m filled with all kinds of things.”
One of the things I’ve been asking people, who have all this high energy, is “How do you tell when you’re running towards something or running away from something?”
I love it.
I’ll mention something and people might want to listen to this episode because I will become friends, as I’m hoping Rick and I become. I interviewed a fellow named Chip Conley. Chip Conley is very well known, he had a group of hotels called Joie de Vivre hotels, which he sold them. He was one of the early Airbnb people who made a lot of money. Then he pivoted some years ago into something called Modern elder Academy because he said, “I reached a point where I didn’t have financial insecurities, but I wasn’t happy. I had five friends who died by suicide. I had depression, I could be suicidal, I had everything. I realized I had Achiever’s disease.” One of the things we brought up, he sort of heard but then it landed days later and he actually wrote a blog about it at modern elder Academy. I said, “There’s a possibility that you have something that we call the syndrome of disavowed yearning.” He asked what that means, and I replied “It’s quite possible that when you were young, we’re pretty complete when we’re in the womb but when we get out of the womb, we’re not complete. We cry, we get scared, we’re hungry, someone has to hold us, and we don’t communicate as well after we’re born, then before we’re born, your mom’s placenta is in command. What happens is, we not only need to be fed and and dressed, we need an emotional connection to feel whole. When we don’t get it, and it hurts, and we’re powerless to get it, we can convince ourselves we don’t need it. If we happen upon something called achievement, that’s pretty neat. You can run with achievement for 45 years and think this is great and I’m buying stuff and people are smiling and this is terrific, but then it can be a point around 45-50 where you say, “It’s all the same and something’s not right, and what’s not right, is that achievement was a way of coping with a desire inside to feel complete, which you didn’t feel because of a lack of connection, emotional, psychological, it really dawned on him. He wrote a blog, in it he said, we not only want to focus on what we’re earning, we want to focus on what we’re yearning for.
That’s beautiful. I love how you’re talking about how instead of running away from something the right perspective is really running towards something, rather than, shoving something out of your life or destroying something, why don’t you focus on creating something instead?
The point is to create something, you have to create it from a place of somewhere.
What do you mean by that?
There’s something that has really brought my whole life full circle, in the past six months. In fact, I started a company that’s in beta. We have a website called Michelangelo mindset. Michelangelo had this quote, he said “I saw the angel in the marble, and I kept carving until I set it free.” It’s a whole anti-transactional way of succeeding. For instance, I’ve been working with an international accelerator and we are releasing a course to them in the next couple of days, called My Pitch and succeed like Michelangelo. These are startups who are now needing to get investors, and they’re out of friends and family money. I said, “Inside every investor, just like inside every piece of marble from Michelangelo, is someone who wants to give you their money. They don’t want to just sit on the money. What you need to do is eliminate everything that gets in the way, and then free them to give you the money.” One of the problems is when you come on too strong with your technology and your great idea is that every startup has a great idea. The more pushy you are with it, the more you’re communicating hunger, desperation and anxiety, and you think you’re communicating passion and excitement, they see that everywhere.
I’ll give you a taste of this because I’ve done four cohorts now and the CEO said, “You got to put together a course for us because they just want more of you.” Here’s sort of a taste of it, and hopefully you’ll get it and hopefully your listeners will too. If you’re pitching to an investor and they smile after a few minutes, how often do you think that’s a yes? But then at the end, it turns out to be a no. What happens is the investors don’t smile, because it’s about money. Now you can try humor which is always chancy. When an investor is smiling three minutes into your presentation, more often than not the smile is they’re thinking, “I already don’t want to invest in this but they put so much time into the deck for me to say I’ve seen enough no thanks, I’m going to sit here and smile and try to be polite, but I’m not interested.I should at least sit through a few more slides.” If you’ve been on the receiving end, if you think that that smile is a yes, then you expect at the end of your presentation that they’re going to follow it up with “When can we get started?” But they don’t. Here’s how you do what we call a Manu Ginobili Euro step pivot, if you know anything about the NBA, Manu Ginobili was well known for this pivot that he does where he goes towards the basket, there is a defender, and he’ll step to the defenders right, the right will sort of lean towards the right, then he steps to the left and goes around the defender and makes the layup, it’s called the Euro step.
This is what I’m teaching startups to do with investors, because with the Euro step you don’t lose momentum, you just pivot in that way. Here’s what the pivot looks like, and it feels just like the Euro step, they’re smiling and your experience tells you it’s not a yes. You say exactly this, in this firm tone, “Can we pause for a moment?” They’re going to be confused, and you continue “Yes. Can we pause for a moment.” They’re going to be nervous because they’re going to think, “Oh, he’s caught that I’m already done already. Oh my rudeness is going to come up.” You’ve disarmed the investor and they’ll say “What’s this about?” Replying with, “When we started we were like this, here’s you as the investor with money. Here’s a company that needs money, we’re now like this: Here’s an investor with money and here’s a company that’s not going to see any of it, my company.” You have totally mesmerized them. You could say what happened at the beginning was you were looking for and listening for something, and we didn’t deliver it. We did our best to present what we thought were the parameters that were interesting to you but clearly we missed it. Rather than going through the rest of the slides that you’re not interested in, can you tell me what you were listening to and looking for? That had we presented that to you, we would have kept your attention? Without being controlling, you’re in charge of the conversation.
If they’re still stalled because you’ve taken charge of it, you can say this “Can I tell you what other people have told me?” and they’ll agree to hear you out. “We’ve heard from some other investors that what they were looking for and listening for was something that was going to be a big win to make up for some of the investments that didn’t work out. Does that make sense to you?” Of course they’re going to nod yes, “Can you share with me some of the big wins that you or someone else had your company brought in, and what were some of the parameters now that you think made it a winner?” We might have some of those, we might not have had them on the deck. I’ll tell you even if we don’t have them because I know 15 other startups. I could introduce you to two or three that might fit, I’ll send you some links. Then one of those startups and you can go happily into each other’s future. What you have done is, you have turned a conversation with an investor that was just about over, into you pivoting and focusing on their success. The success of two or three other companies that you know in your cohort. You fit them together and guess what? You have a relationship with all of them, you can go back to all of them for future conversations. Can you see how that sort of an interesting approach with Michelangelo pitching?
Very interesting Mark, when you and I started this episode we were right here together. I’m tracking with you, that’s incredible because any investment pitch, any kind of a pitch is a sale. If you’re not selling a product, you’re really selling yourself in any kind of a pitch, not even necessarily the idea that you have. It’s the confidence that they have in you to guide this, to steer this launch in the future because you can have all the parameters in the world that might match them, but at the same time keeping control of the sale or the pitch in this aspect, is something that will throw people off guard, and it’s something that I’ve trained my people in sales for a long time but straight up, not as eloquent as that. That’s incredible.
If you’re listening, think this, you’re not just gonna go there and have nothing, but Rick is totally correct, what they’re listening for is “Can I trust this person?”
Do I believe that they can do what they say they’re gonna do? Also, what they’re listening for is confidence, and confidence comes from a person’s track record in previous ventures, all the way in their life. Did they start projects in high school that they actually finished and were actually positive, profitable and or popular? I’d also like to know who’s on his team, because I know that if you have a team and you get the wrong people in the wrong place, and there’s conflict that you avoid because most millennial, engineer type people are terrible with conflict. I want to make sure you don’t have much conflict going on there because if you’re with people who aren’t doers, and you’re not confronting those situations. That can bring your company down. I want to be able to trust you, have confidence in you, have confidence in your team, I want to know why you have confidence in your team. I want to know what everybody’s track record has been in their life, because I want people to be doers who have already done something that made a difference as opposed to people who think they can do something, but haven’t really stood the test of time.
Those are incredible points too. Mark is dead on too, and when I look at my team that’s on the board of my company that’s going public, incredible track records, incredible achievements, but then I’ll even ask questions around when I was selecting them. Even though they’re amazing people, running billion dollar public corporations. That’s what I’m looking to build as well, so I need people who have been there. I look at them as a mentor and a guide along this journey. That’s one reason why I selected them was because they’ve already been there, but then when I looked at the track record, I see they’ve done that, they’ve had all these wins but then I would also ask, “Where did you fall on your face?” In what you’re explaining and asking about the track record, it goes beyond the successes, it also comes down to “How did you deal with the times, you just ran into a wall. How did you deal with the times where you had to take 10 steps backwards, did you get back up again? Did you keep fighting forward, did you see that as being the end, and then just decided to start something brand new, or did you want to see this thing through to the end?” This is just like you’re saying with the high school project. I can start checking off the failures in my life where I’ve, very humbly, just fallen flat on my face, but still I even see those as forward movements, because of the education that I learned from them.
I think a good question to build on what you’re saying is be more specific, the better the information. I would say to people, “Look, we’ve all had failures in our life. What I’m looking for is, what was your recoup time?”
A lot of times when we have failure, sometimes we go into a funk. You’re allowed to go into a funk if you lose a business or you lose a marriage, but you need to get up and I need to see what your recoup time is. I need to see that you’re resilient. A good question to bring up when you’re building a team, one of my favorites and I tell people to do this, you say, “Tell me about conflicts in your prior ventures.” It’s very interesting because what you’re really wanting to see is, are they people who can take responsibility for their part in the conflict? If instead you get someone where it’s always someone else. “Oh they did this, they did such and such.” There’s something that I call the three strikes, that you use when you’re hiring someone or deciding to marry someone. “So tell me about conflicts in the past.” The second question is, “How did you contribute to the issue? What was your responsibility?” If they still don’t see a clue that they contributed, they get a third strike. The third strike is this, “Going forward in the event that we have differences of opinions and conflicts. From your point of view, what’s the best and fastest and most effective way to get through them?” If they have no idea they need to do something, I would look long and hard before I said yes to whoever that person is.
That’s completely passing any kind of responsibility. It’s a more simplistic example, but there’s a phrase I have in my business in cybersecurity, it’s never trust a vendor, ever. Around five years ago or so, it was never trust vendors, ever and the whole basis of that is to put ownership and responsibility back on my team to drive forward movements, even when it seems like you now require the actions of someone else, on a third party to actually move a project forward. It’s the same in a relationship or whatever it’s like what actions you need to take and how can you manage that, or how can you contribute as you’re saying to the forward movements by as simple as just maybe making a statement or thinking it through and saying what can I do tomorrow? I realized that the other party, if it’s a spouse, if it’s a business partner, if it’s a vendor, they have to take steps with me in this, but it’s not taking steps separately. It is taking steps with me in this, so what steps do I need to take simultaneously to them making their moves?
You mentioned something, so let’s spend a little time on personal relationships because divorces and or family issues can really bring you down to your knees and can be really disruptive. In the Michelangelo mindset, here’s something that we’ve discovered: we’re calling it Michelangelo marriage. If you use the metaphor that Michelangelo saw an angel of the statue of David inside the marble and just freed it. We’ve discovered that marriages don’t end because you stop loving each other, they end because you stopped feeling liked by each other. There’s a lot of people who say we love each other and we’re devoted. I think even if we got divorced, if I got cancer he or she they’d be by my bedside, but we just don’t like each other anymore.
That’s heavy. I’m gonna pull a word from the 80s. That’s heavy.
We don’t feel liked by each other. I’ll share an incident because I’ve been married 43 years. I test all this stuff on my own. I said to my wife, and we have a solid marriage, three grown children, functional launch, three grandchildren. I’ve got the American dream of a functional family, and my wife gets 120% of the credit. I wanted to test this on my marriage. I got to test it because the other day we were driving past each other doing errands, when we’re on errands we’ll drive by each other she’ll wave and I’ll wave in the window. After she waved I said to myself, “Boy, am I lucky to be married to her. Because I can create a house but I can’t create a home. And because of her. I’ve got a home.” Not like some of my entrepreneurial friends who have this frenetic smile and say, “Life is great. Oh, I got a new girl. We’re in Bali, we’re in Dubai!” Their smile doesn’t touch their eyes because they’re always on the run, but I have a home to go back to. I shared that with my wife, I said “I tried an exercise about our relationship out, “and she said, “Here we go again.” I said, “No, I think you’re gonna like this one, this is going to end well.
How many times have you gone through that phrase, in the past 43 years?
When I drove by you, my immediate thought was “I’m lucky to be married to you, even though I’m not a normal person, I like to be able to come home to a real home.” I said, “Now what we have to work on, is when I come in from the front door, and I get to get ready, and then that smile you put on my face when we’re driving by each other, can turn into something else,” but the Michaelangelo marriage thing is knowing that it’s in there to eliminate all the stuff that gets in the way and that can build up. If you’re not as fortunate as my wife and I have been, you can dig down and drive past your spouse and think to yourself, boy am I trapped. Which is something you don’t want to feel.
This is hard hitting Mark and I love it. There’s a lot of turmoil in the world, and it’s been happening this way. Even though the past year and a half into a pandemic, I don’t feel that there’s necessarily more turmoil than what there was, I think this just removed the thinly woven veil that was already there for the turmoil, because I think it just stopped it from hiding. That’s really what it is. It brought it to the surface.Especially with relationships, because I feel that you can go through life or a marriage, you can go through a family. This is running away, the escapist, because you can dive into work, you can dive into a hobby, you can dive into anything else, and avoid the thing that you don’t like or the person that you don’t like by these other things. They’re distractions and that’s still running away from things. What this forced, especially with the stay at home was. now you’re just sort of realizing that you’re stuck, because you’re quite literally stuck inside the house now. How do you help people with that? How have you helped people with that once that realization takes place that “Wow, this is just not a person that I like and I feel trapped now, I feel stuck.” Where you don’t want to make that wave, as you’re driving by each other on the highway.
I collect insights and quotes that sometimes, just knock me for a loop. A friend of mine shared this most profound insight that I’ve ever heard. He said “One of the things that we can’t stand to feel, is the true depth of our disappointment in anything, because we’re afraid if I realize how disappointed I am in my job, I’ll have to quit, and I need the job. If I realize how disappointed I am in my spouse, we’ll have to get a divorce and I don’t want to get a divorce. If I realize how disappointed I am in my child, I’ll be this lousy parent who doesn’t like his or her kids. If I realize how disappointed I am in myself and my life, I don’t know if I can exist.” Here was the profound insight that my friend Maury Schekman said. He said, “the way we do this, there’s two things we do to avoid disappointment, avoid feeling it is we either shut down, or we get angry.” I said, “Wait a minute. Isn’t that an expression of disappointment?” He said, “No, it’s an avoidance of it,” then he did an exercise with me, which I’ll share with you because I’m pretty open here. My dad died in 1995, and he could be a critical man. I think he probably lived in fear of whether he could support the family, and so he wasn’t necessarily the most positive person. I was meeting with this friend of mine, and he said, “I’ve heard you say certain things about your dad, and it sounds like you might have been disappointed in him.” Then without his prompting, I said “Well, he did the best he could. I mean he came from a terrible childhood and he was much better than his own dad.” Maury said “Yeah, but it still sounds like you might have been disappointed in him.” I made excuses for about three or four more volleys. I said “Well, I guess I was disappointed in him but, I didn’t want to feel the disappointment and then be lost with the internal connection I still had with him.”. And then I finally said the words, “I was disappointed in my dad.” and I was about to say something to take it away and he said, “Stop. Repeat that.” “I was disappointed in my dad.” He said just sit with it. What was really interesting is that it didn’t sever any kind of thing. I felt this wave of sadness, like why did it have to be that way. What a waste of time because down deep, I know he was lonesome for a connection with his kids as much as we were with him. I think his advice is amazing, if you can allow yourself to stop and just say, What and who am I disappointed in? Just feel the depth of it, you don’t even have to express it to anyone else, but it’s scary but it’s incredibly cleansing.
That exercise is powerful as you were talking, I almost started doing it with myself too. It’s something I’m going to do later today, and just review a couple of things, even in my own life, and even in my own self, as I’ve been doing a lot of those kinds of things like mental and emotional releases lately. Around these exact scenarios, what disappointed me in my life? Then what do I want to create rather than stopping or versus running away from something from here on out? What do I want to create in a positive direction rather than avoiding the negative, there’s a distinct difference between those two. That exercise that you’re talking about, have you seen any individual that you’ve coached or negotiated with even, where they will even avoid that? You said it took you four times to even actually have this person say stop right there. How do you get to that point to where you’re even ready for an exercise like this?
The first thing is, and I trust you that you will think about it and try to apply it to yourself, but what I’m hoping is as I described it, that you tracked with me and you could feel that when I got to the end point, I felt relief.
Here’s another Michelangelo nugget that I think was profound. That was one of my favorite insights here. My favorite quote of all time comes from a woman, Dr. Shawne Duperon, who has a broker program called Project forgive. The quote is “Forgiveness is accepting the apology you will never receive.” She said that to me and then afterwards I applied that to my dad. One of the things I remember he used to say, he was good with numbers, he was an accountant but he wasn’t a salesy type person, and I think he was always worried. He didn’t know he worked for a larger than life person, but I think he was always worried because he was good with numbers. I think whenever I would bring up any ideas because I’m creative, he would say to me, “What makes you think anything about anything?” Pretty dismissive. After I heard what Shawne say, “forgiveness is accepting the apology you will never receive.” I applied it, and I received this apology from my father, who died 26 years ago,
What I heard him say to me, “Remember when I used to say to you, what makes you think anything about anything? I was really talking about myself and not knowing much about things beyond numbers. When you brought up things that you were right to bring up, I wish I had sent you to the neighbor’s dad who knew a lot about that but because I got triggered by my insecurities, I shut you down. I want to apologize to you because of what you’ve done with your life, what you’ve become, what you’ve accomplished, much of which I wasn’t around to see, you’re an amazing son. I was blessed to bring you into this world. I don’t know where I lucked out.” I imagine him saying that to me which I know he would, I apologized. I said, “I’m sorry for holding a grudge against you. I’m sorry I had this chip on my shoulder, and I hope you’re resting in peace.”
Mark, this may be the second time that we’ve cried together.
It’s a good thing for friends to do.
I appreciate your vulnerability, and I know everyone who listens will appreciate that too. There’s a lot of apologies that people will never hear, they’ll move on to different jobs, different relationships, different places on this earth. They’ll never get that apology, or they’ll attend funerals and look down in disgust, and in disappointment but never allow themselves to feel it.
I want to point out something to you, which your listeners will figure out, and when you watch this or listen to it. You just transitioned, your tone of voice just became NPR.
This was that tone I was talking to you about, when to flip the camera around and just pause for a moment.
A little NPR might be good for the show.
I don’t know where to go from here, except that I appreciate this budding friendship that we have. I think there’s a lot that we have to explore together to just, I’m just foreseeing in the future a little bit.
I’ll tell you what I’d be curious for, I’ll take a chance here, I may have said it before, I don’t think I’ve ever said this in public, but it’s around that time of day. What is one thing you’re grateful for?
For being alive. It’s not a cliche for me either, as I had some things wrapped up around my dad’s death, that I didn’t deal with until about a year and a half ago. I was caught up in those achievement mindsets, and if I didn’t achieve, I would literally die and breaking that subconscious connection, so now I am very, very grateful to be alive. I know that there’s nothing that I can do. There’s nothing that I really can do, there’s not any amount of achievements that will allow me to stay living or really almost on life support, as what it was, where I was at about a year and a half ago. I’m grateful for that because I also know that, this is something I’ve never said in public too, because my dad died in 1995, also. I was 16 years old. I realized when you said that today, his father, my grandfather, there was a divorce that that happened and he never saw his dad around age 16 and after too just like me, so wrapped up into this when my dad passed was this very untrue story that I had, thinking that I’m never going to be able to see my kids or my kids are not going to have a dad after they’re 16. After recognizing a lot of this, to where I say now I’m grateful to be alive, I know now that that story is untrue. When I say I’m grateful to be alive. I’m grateful for the next 40 to 50 years of my life too, because I will be alive. I will be around with my kids, I will be around for anybody else in my life that needs me, I will be around to help them build their legacies. I get to sit back at some point and just not have the disappointment, but be able to tell them it’s like “I’m super glad that you surpassed me.” I’m a legacy builder, that’s where I see myself and my dad was really the start of that as we talked on your show too. What are you grateful for today, at this time?
Around this time of day on March 3rd of this year, I’m grateful for the same thing you are but slightly different. On March 3rd of this year at this time, my oncologist told me I wasn’t going to die. I have lymphoma, and I’m still healthy. We’ll treat it when I become unhealthy. We get tests, but I feel an urgency to get anything I know out, and to help people like you who could change the world. I feel a sense of urgency. I want to be present to see my grandchildren every day. I don’t take it lightly. Every time on this day wherever I’m with whoever I’m with, I ask him what they’re grateful for. I don’t like to use the word, but I trump the hell out of them with mine. I’ll tell you, I’m thinking of scheduling all my tough negotiations for this hour, when the time says I’m going to say, “hold on to your anger.”
They’ve got no chance, Mark. They’re done. I appreciate you, I know I’ve said it a million times now on the show, but I really do. If you’re listening, where you find Mark is on his webpage, and on Instagram. His books too, you need to pick up. If you want, DM me what you’re grateful for today. Whatever Mark’s collection is, his entire works that he has, I’ll ship you. I’m gonna pick a random winner, and send them all out to you because one, I want to support Mark, who is an amazing new friend of mine, and I also want to support you. This is the only reason why we exist in this world right is to help other people to continue to accelerate society and culture.
Absolutely. If you go to himalaya.com, I have an audio course, if I haven’t put you to sleep and you like my way of dissecting things, you might find it interesting in the course is called “Defeating self defeat” because my first book was called “Get Out of Your Own Way”, which was a bestseller. If any of your listeners want us to continue the conversation on any topic, I’d be open to that but you can only have so many guests.
There’s a handful of guests, and I would love to have you included in that handful, if that’s okay to where I’ve done three, four and even some with six episodes. It is natural, it’s almost the same wavelength.
Thanks for having me on, friend.
Alright, friend. Thank you!