The Power of Intentional Curiosity | Craig Dowden

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Episode Topics:

• Engage with the wisdom of a Ph.D. guest who’s an expert in leadership and personal growth.
• Learn about the intersection of emotions, values, and behaviors in successful leadership.
• Discover the critical role of lifelong learning and curiosity from a seasoned coach to top CEOs.
• Gain unique insights into how to harness your emotions for personal and professional development.
• Be inspired by the guest’s journey and expertise in transforming challenges into opportunities for growth.

 

Rick Jordan  

Hey, what’s shakin, hey, I’m Rick Jordan today, we’re going all in. All right, I have a very special guest for you today. As I’m looking at this, I believe it may be the case, it may not be the case. But I believe and this is kind of cool that this is the first time all in has ever hosted a guest with a PhD. And this is phenomenal, right? Because of the amount of work you have to go in to do that I related back to when I was ordained as a pastor how I had to write my own dissertation on my own statement of beliefs and defend them. To this panel of people, it was an insane time going through that. And it means a lot you know, those types of things mean a lot when you have to state what you believe, and your thesis and the way you see the world. And then you have to defend it after that too. So I’m excited because this guy not not like PhD is anything small. But he’s been in the Wall Street Journal USA Today Amazon Best Selling Author of a time to lead mastering yourself amongst a whole bunch of other things like coaching CEOs, I mean, fortune 100 CEOs from what I can see here, just incredible. This is super long. Craig Dowden, what’s shakin my man? See the bio? And I’m like, This is what people like do when they read my No joke, because they’re like, where do I start? But there’s so much stuff, man. And I’m gonna start with this question because you have a whole bunch of topics. First, it’s good to have you. I’m grateful for you being here. Thank you.

 

Craig Dowden  

Thank you very much. It’s awesome. I’ve been really excited about this conversation. Good,

 

Rick Jordan  

good, man. That’s good. Because you’ve got an amazing top half percent, like 0.5% podcasts in the world, and all of these things, right? And I feel it because when I guess on shows that they’re going through the buyer, they’re like, jeez, can we just like to pick one or two things because there’s so much stuff? It’s like, I’m a cybersecurity CEO. But then I produced a couple of documentaries, right? I have a podcast, I needed stand-up and Broadway. Go to CEO events and coach CEOs that I also, you know, invest, you know, so there’s a bunch of these different things. But they’re like, Dude, it’s like, and I want to ask you because nobody’s ever asked me this question. Right? So we’re flipping the tables today. It’s like, How in the world? Do you think that somebody in a lifetime can just expand their horizons to all of these different areas? You know, and it’s because it’s that phrase like the master? Or what is it I can’t be the jack of all trades. That’s it. I can’t remember it right there jack of all trades and master of none. But that’s not the case with guys like you and I, because I think we have a foundational focus. But give me your perspective on that, please, about doing all of this.

 

Craig Dowden  

Well, thank you for for welcoming, and great. And thank you for a great opening question. And when I was looking at your bio as well, you know, just spoke to me, and when we’re getting to know each other, and I think you know, something that really resonates with you, Rick, is that just feel like this passion for learning and passion for growth, passion for development

 

Rick Jordan  

intention. Right?

 

Craig Dowden  

Yeah, absolutely. Like all in. And I think for me, in every area that I pursue, I just love having great conversations like today, learning from extraordinary thought leaders and accomplished executives like yourself. And so I just approach it like a sponge and go, How do I get more of this? And even when I’m on vacation, I take books and podcasts that I’m going to interview on my own, too good to lead well, and then people say, well, don’t you get tired of it? Don’t you want to bring a different kind of book? And I’m like, No, I just love it. It’s just everything every single day, I wake up grateful for what I do with whom I do it. And then the opportunity to have these kinds of discussions. There’s nothing more I’d rather do.

 

Rick Jordan  

I love that man. Yeah, and that’s a, I think that’s a qualifier for a lot of things. You know, even when I when we hire people, you know, because there are certain roles you can have in a company, right, and I’m a growing company, eight-figure cybersecurity company, we just went public. And the one thing that I see about people that advance in the organization, people that continuously grow, you know, and one I’m not naive, I say this all the time. I am not a naive man to think that everybody who joins our team will stick around forever. Because I also like I take fulfillment not in just allowing an environment for that for people to grow with an unlimited capacity, but also as somebody who can plant seeds in people so that they can grow here but then also take that and grow somewhere else so there’s no ego involved in that. You know, if I’m a seed planter, I’m awesome. If I can see them all the way to the top where they bloom. I feel great about it. because I’m still just a portion that along the way, but everyone that I see that advances Well, always has that intentional curiosity. And it’s something that’s cultivated, you know, some people have it and I want your take on this to man because you’ve seen this. Some people, like my mom, explain to me she has before, you know, I don’t bring my mom up too much. But today I am here I am today. I’m the mama’s boy. All right, my mom has said this dude, that when you were one year old, we’re taking you on the merry-go-round. And you’re just like staring up, you’re not enjoying the ride, you’re staring up and looking at how all the pieces connect. Right? So that natural born but others I’ve seen cultivate, and almost practice and build that muscle of curiosity, you know, what is your perspective on those two groups of people? And if you’re not the one with birth, you know, kind of like I was, how do you cultivate that?

 

Craig Dowden  

Yeah, and it’s such an important point. And I came across this great quote the other day, where, and I forget, who was that said it. But basically, you can only scale your team and your company as quickly as you can scale yourself. And I was like, yeah, exactly. Ding, ding. That’s amazing. And so curiosity is at the heart of that. Because if we get to the place where I feel like, okay, I’ve made it, and I’ve interviewed and coached CEOs and executives like this, and I’m sure you’ve come across them, as well as that, well, I’ve gone to the apex of melt knowledge. And now I’m excited to share everything I’ve learned, I’ve basically absorbed all that I can. And so now we’re missing out on an incredible opportunity to keep growing an incredible opportunity to keep developing. And so that innate curiosity that learns curiosity, the ability to ask questions, the ability to dig deeper, the ability to get really granular and understand on a much more profound level, what’s happening and have that insatiable desire to understand. It just serves you so well. And I think the other thing which I loved about your setup of this as well, is that humility, that you talked about, right? You were saying, Hey, I’m here, I’m building a company. And it’s not surprising how successful you then congratulations. It’s amazing. Thank you. And again, in my work, that’s the secret sauce, like, as you said, I’m cultivating an environment where people can be at their best. And I’m enjoying the time that they’re here. So I can support them in that pursuit. And if they go on elsewhere, awesome. Like, there’s no it doesn’t, this is great, unhappy, we had this time together, I want to set up an environment to thrive. And so I think those two elements going together, that curiosity, and that humility, those are almost like a dynamic duo. Because to really be interested in learning as much as I can, and then also have the Outlook to go, I don’t know everything, there’s lots that I can learn from different perspectives and people. So I think that is the foundation for being successful.

 

Rick Jordan  

That’s a great perspective. Thank you for diving deep into those two arenas, is it’s let’s, uh, let’s go on the negative side of the coin for a moment, if you don’t mind along the same topic because there are those who do not cultivate the curiosity, you know, who think that I’ve got what I’ve got, and then that’s what I’m gonna put into the world, which fine, you know, great, you know, maybe that’s all and maybe that’s the version of all in for them is that this is what I’m going to do. But for those that are, are struggling, where they see other people that are becoming more successful around them, you know, for those that are advancing beyond them, you know, maybe they are working in a company and their peer was promoted over them who used to be under them. So it’s a you see all these things. And I mean, at the very core, I know they’re bruises to the ego, right? How can you help somebody shift a mindset between looking outward, right, and trying to recognize that curiosity that that individual probably had that actually accelerated them to looking inward? Where it’s like, how do I actually cultivate that in me?

 

Craig Dowden  

Well, I love that question and had the pleasure of welcoming Doug Conant, the former CEO of Campbell’s Soup Company, we engineered one of the greatest turnarounds in the history of Gallup engagement. And he touches on exactly your point, Rick around well, leadership starts from within, we have to look inward in order to really pivot in those circumstances. So if I’m looking at someone and understandably so and as you say, we all have an ego like let’s not, we all don’t have, certainly, it’s okay, like it’s healthy. self-confidence we have to believe in ourselves. And and have that in perspective now when that’s hurt by that now I have an opportunity where someone’s accomplishment, something that I want to accomplish. This really reminds me of the fantastic work with Carol Dweck on the growth mindset. Rather than being…

 

Rick Jordan  

 It’s like reading a book, man. That’s a fantastic book.

 

Craig Dowden  

Yeah, absolutely. And rather than being threatened by it, rather than being frustrated, rather than saying, well, here are all the reasons why this is happening. How about if we split the switch? And then we said, Wow, what can I learn from this person? Right? The success leaves clues. What are the things that they were doing? How can I go and ask them deep questions, because one of the cool things a lot of people love when you ask them for advice, a lot of people love when they see you as an expert, or someone who can provide some valuable insight. So now rather than being threatened by that and shutting down and then that essentially guarantees we’re going to say, where are we? How can I learn from this? What are things that are within my control that I can do that I can say to capitalize? And I think what’s critical, and I love how you talked about the book, and Carol Dweck’s work is that well, our mindset has a foundational role and what our experiences are, and the things that we say, and the choices we make and the behaviors we exhibit. So recognizing that as a key influencer for us key.,

 

Rick Jordan  

That’s that’s awesome. Before I dive into where my brain is going here, what is your PhD in?

 

Craig Dowden  

Psychology and business? 

 

Rick Jordan  

It is perfect. Awesome. Then I’m gonna dive into my next question. I had a thought process and all right, we’re gonna go into his ear. Now, in those moments, because I mean, a lot of what we’re talking about is without minimizing it, because you’re making some profound points, some absolute profound points. A lot of his a lot of it is very much tonight, dude, I do this all the time, too. It’s like theoretical, right? At least it’s to our listeners, people who are listening to us whether on stage on a podcast, on TV, whatever, it’s like, Okay, that’s great for you always say, that sounds good for you, dude, I’ve heard that 18 million times. It’s like, it’s like, but application around what you were just saying, you know, because the first emotion that I can think of in those moments about what we’re describing, you know, when we see if you want to, it’s a bad word, but I’ll use it natural selection, right? If we think that it’s natural selection because something better happened to somebody else rather than us, you know, rather than looking inward. In those moments, the first emotion that usually comes out is anger. Right? Yeah. And that’s the thing, you know, because then there could be jealousy, there can be envy, you know, and everything else that flows along with that they’re kind of the evil cousins if you want to put it that way. You know, because anger in itself is actually it can be a very healthy emotion, you know, it can cause some great shifts. And there’s, there’s very ways to very good ways to have almost like a positive anger towards things. And you should be angry about some things, you know, but the anger I’m talking about has those evil cousins of jealousy, envy when you see those things take place. So in those scenarios, you know, what is an application? You know, what, what, what can somebody do in their mindset right then in there, you know, to calm down, reflect, and then actually do exactly what you’re saying?

 

Craig Dowden  

Well, and I want to thank you for beautifully setting this up for me, brother. Yeah, exactly. This is like, boom, right across the net, right? Because you nailed it, Rick, in terms of emotions, and, um, right away, emotions bubble up. And one of the things that can happen and, and I’m a positive psychologist by training as well, at the same time, all emotions are important, just trying to quote the right, sir,

 

Rick Jordan  

and valid all emotions.

 

Craig Dowden  

Exactly. All of them are valid and valuable. The perspective that I love is that our emotions are data points, whatever emotions are their data points, and they’re basically in one of the best ways I’ve heard it described positive emotions, let us know that we’re in alignment with our lives or where we would like them to be or what’s happening in our circumstance. Negative emotions, like anger, are telling us we’re out of alignment. And I love your point that it can be an incredibly valuable emotion. It’s telling us something. And so right away, what I find is so important, is to think about okay, so how am I feeling about this? And whatever emotion that we’re feeling, it’s actually providing us with a roadmap for the steps we have to take. And that’s what I love and rather than judge it, because a lot of us will judge and emotion as an example, like I should shouldn’t be angry at this. And now we’re minimizing a chance to learn from. And in fact, in a lot of my coaching work, Rick like, what I will say is, the more that you feel that your feeling is disconnected from how you should be responding, you want to be more curious, not less because now you’re even recognizing that disconnect. And sitting with that emotion longer understanding what it’s trying to tell you, recognizing what are the things that really bubbled this emotion to the surface. Now, this is valuable, not just for the current moment where I’m in, but it also is instructive for the future when I feel that emotion again, okay, what’s going on? And you hear so much work, and so much commentary around. So how do we survive? How do we thrive in the world today? And tomorrow, when it’s incredibly disrupted? Well, it’s being in control of our emotions.

 

Rick Jordan  

So there’s something you said, and if I can interrupt you for a second, there’s something you said a little bit back that really kind of grabbed at me, and I don’t want to blow past it. Because I think it’s so profound, dude. When you said that, what you’re feeling is disconnected from how you think you should be responding. And I think that all of us, right, have had those moments, where we’re in the midst of a conflict. And you’re, you’re acting one way, because of how you’re feeling. But there’s still that voice in the back of your head that says, what the fuck why this, you know, this is not the way you want to treat this person. It’s almost like this screaming thing that’s kind of got duct tape over its mouth, trying to get you to get back on track with who you really are. You know, but that’s, that’s what it is. It’s like, we all have that thing in our head, you know, call it a conscience or whatever else. But it’s literally saying like, WTF dude, this isn’t you? Why are you treating this person that you love so much? Why are you treating this employee that you care about so much? Why are you treating this friend in such a horrible way? It’s been friends for two decades. You know, that’s the disconnect. But we have that voice. I think all of us do. A voice of reason, a conscience, whatever you want to call it. But in that moment, how like, how, dude, how do you get those back in sync? When you’ve got the emotion that took over? Right? I love having you on today. Because these are questions I’ve always wanted to ask them like, I got an expert. Let’s go after, you know, we’re diving. Okay. How do you realign that in the moment? You know, how do you catch yourself? Yeah.

 

Craig Dowden  

Amazing question. And I’m loving this conversation. This is why it was good for me to talk to you. Because it was just like, This is gonna be a playground time. Like, this is just fantastic.

 

Rick Jordan  

People listening to like, oh, yeah, that’s me, you know, I just go off and then all of a sudden, it’s like, it’s like, Wait, I got this voice. I’m like, but I don’t want to treat this person this way.

 

Craig Dowden  

Absolutely. So a couple of things. I’ll approach it from a couple of different angles. Stephen Covey had a great quote, that I’ll paraphrase where he said, you know, between the stimulus and the response, there’s space for our choice. And dad is critical. I love that, right? Because what can happen from that,

 

Rick Jordan  

again, between stimulus and response, there is space for choice and

 

Craig Dowden  

a choice space for a choice. And if we believe so, and again, I love your example where it’s like, well, I couldn’t control myself, right? I just my emotions just hijack me. Okay, fair enough. And yet we have a choice in that space. And now by really being intentional, it’s amazing, right? How do you build a business? How do you become a keynote speaker? How if you’re looking to you know, body build or run a marathon, what do you do? You do reps. And it’s amazing to me, that think about the profound impact that motions have on our lives. And how little time we spend most of them’re just kind of there. They’re part of our experiences. So being more intentional, being more reflective again, going, Wow, I just absolutely tore someone apart into

 

Rick Jordan  

I really sucked in that moment.

 

Craig Dowden  

Brutal like what and then now you go, Okay, so now I have choices. What happened? What did they say? What did they do? What was going on? Like, did I not sleep? Well, did I not eat? Well, what was happening so I could learn? These are the potential triggering events, right, that can be replicated in the future. And then I can also go back to the person and go, Rick, I’m so sorry. Like, I had no business that was just completely wrong. It’s inexcusable. What I said what I did, and this relationship is too important to me. That’s not who I am and who I want to be. So I apologize. It’s like how can we make this? How can we make this right? These are all choices. And to step back from a strategy standpoint, like, again, if you say, okay, so how do we? And I love that question because that’s what I’m passionate about. The subtitle of my first book was The Science and Practice of Positive Leadership. Again, theory ideas, great, oh, what do we do with them? I collaborated on my latest book with Alan Mulally, the former CEO of Ford Motor Company. And he had the definition of authentic leadership, which I think is awesome. He said, authentic leadership, or you can even say authenticity is when our values, our beliefs, and our behaviors are in alignment. The only thing that people see is our behavior. And then they’re going to make assumptions. So one critical exercise that we can do, and I work with very senior executives, C suite executives, and I’ll ask them routinely, what are your values? What are the core values that drive you and your leadership or life philosophy? And it’s a lot harder to answer, and many of us have never sat down and said, Okay, what are my core values? What are the five to six values, those core beliefs that drive how I show up in the world? Now with those values, when we’ve done that reflection, and think about how am I going to behave? Again, what a powerful opportunity for us to now carry that learning forward. So if one of my core values is respect, when we start to get into a heated discussion, now that’s a wonderful way that I can remind myself will respect isn’t taking workouts to the woodshed respect isn’t about making a personal attack. And so people that I work with and executives that I’ve spoken with, they’ll read those values every day and say, Hey, how am I going to live those values today? What is that going to look like in my business and my personal life? And then at the end of the day, really getting granular they come home and they do a scorecard. Right well like so

 

Rick Jordan  

I might be a little stuck back on the woodshed because I don’t ever want to go to the woodshed I’m gonna just say, I don’t know what’s involved in the woodshed. You know, it’s the first time I’ve heard that phrase you sound like a bad place. Greg’s a really bad place. I don’t want to go to the woodshed. Don’t take him to the woodshed. Thanks. But no, you’re right. Yeah, yeah, I don’t want to rake this guy over the coals. You know, there’s another metaphor.

 

Craig Dowden  

Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, it’s, it’s so important in terms of Well, now we can start to think about okay, how did I do today? How did I actually live and lead with my values? What, to what extent was I respectful? And then taking five minutes to reflect on that? Fabulous?

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah, that’s good. The reflection part is essential. It absolutely is. Even if you have resolution and reconciliation in the moment resolution reconciliation and repair like the three R’s. You know, I don’t know, I’ve never done a show on the three R’s. I need to do a show on the three R’s and talk about that. That’s, that’s great. Yeah. And it’s like, I just came up with another idea right there because I talked about it. But in that process, the reflection is so important, you know, even after you might have repaired everything, at the moment with that individual, you know, it doesn’t matter the relationship, right? It could be a spouse, a partner, it could be an employee, it could be a manager, it could be any sort of interactive relationship you have in your life, you know, and notice, I use the word Interactive. I’m not talking with somebody, you’re trolling on social media. You know, that’s a totally different psychological perspective that I don’t think we’re gonna get into today. But great, and oh, go ahead. Yeah, maybe you got a point. Yeah, that’s great. Let’s fight. Here we go. We’re diving in the weeds, everybody. We’re going out to the woodshed with Craig, and we’re talking about social media trolls. Here we go.

 

Craig Dowden  

Now, we’ve really kind of taken the off-ramp, and why I’m excited is you talked about reflection. And what I wanted to link back to is one of the key terms you started this conversation with Rick, which is curiosity. Reflection is curiosity. And in a world that moves so fast, time for reflection, I hear that all the time. I just don’t have time. I don’t have time. How do we learn? How do we grow? And I love that you focus on that and I would absolutely recommend doing that episode. Selection is so key because without reflection, what are we doing? How are we doing? Yep, for sure. Are we learning? Possibly, likely not if we’re not reflecting because reflection is intentional reflection is curious. And that maximizes the chances to learn. I remember someone saying that oh, great observation. Someone said Well, I’ve been During this 30 years, I must be doing something right. And the response was no, you may have 30 years of one a one year cycle repeated 30 times

 

Rick Jordan  

no joke. Yeah. And even if they think they’ve done it, right, what about all the capacity limitations that you’ve placed upon yourself in those 30 years, because you were not curious about the differences in reflection to another word I like for that as digestion, because it’s a reflection is not something, at least in my opinion, that is done in five minutes, and then you’re, you’re out, right? Let, that be the only reflective period that you have, you can, you can maybe meditate on it for five minutes. And this is something that helps me you can maybe meditate on it for five minutes. But don’t walk away from that, that five minutes of reflection, and think that’s it. Because digestion, like just like food, it’s slow, you know, and it’s the same thing, it’s like the bigger the conflict that you might have had with somebody, like, the bigger the meal you eat, the longer it’s going to take to digest, the longer it’s going to take to reflect it all depends on the enormity of the scenario that you were just in. So I think that it’s almost a direct proportion, Greg is when I see it, it’s like the Curiosity has to be even in a greater proportion to match the amount of the confliction that you might have just experienced.

 

Craig Dowden  

Yeah, I love that. I think that’s, you know, like, drop observation right there in Germany’s always. Well, and and you think of, you know, situations that again, in this extraordinarily fast-paced world, we’re just looking to bounce to the next thing. And, and I really appreciate the separation that you’re making between reflection and digestion. Because yes, we want to sit with things longer. And situations that are more complex, require us to sit with things longer because we’re going to be processing so much more emotion, and so many more pieces around this. And that really, once again, and thinking of okay, so practical side, and then how does that impact us in our success? Well, the vast majority of people are probably not going to spend, maybe some will do reflection, how many will do digestion, sit with it, and take that time. So really, by sitting with those things longer, it really positions us to show up in a much more authentic and powerful way in the future. Investing now to save time and impact in the future.

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah, I want to I want to end with a thought here, you know, around what you’re saying and where we’re going with us. Because there’s, there’s one big item, you know, it’s kind of like the elephant in the room that I think can prevent the reflection, you know, prevent the digestion. And I believe if you Imean, they might be cousins, right, but it’s guilt or self-loathing. And that could prevent you because it’s it becomes like the I just had a Post this morning, right? Like, choosing it was about choosing your words and like, especially to yourself in private, whether it’s to others in public, or especially to yourself in private, it’s like you need to choose wisely, because you’re setting up your future space, you know, so it’s like, literally your life depends on it. Right? That guilt or that self-loathing? Because, I mean, it’s I once heard a phrase by a good friend of mine that said, you can never feel bad enough to make somebody else feel good. And in those moments, it’s like, how do you how do you move past? Or what would you tell everyone who gets stuck in that because that voice, right, that we were talking about earlier, finally took over, we finally brought ourselves back down? But now that same voice that it was saying, hey, stop, you idiot, you love this person, or you really care for this person, or this person is valuable to your company? After the fact, it changed a little bit and their voice was like, you idiot. Why did you do that? You know, it’s it’s, that’s the after the fact, you know, so how do we? How do we overcome that guilt or that negative self-talk so that we can have some healthy reflection, and have compassion and empathy for ourselves, man?

 

Craig Dowden  

Beautiful, no. And I think that’s such an important question and something for all of us to think about. I would refer your listeners to the work of Dr. Kristin Neff. She’s done extraordinary work on self-compassion, and the power of being kind to ourselves. And you nailed it, because if we are in that guilt and shame spiral, well, then how can we create time to reflect how can we take time to digest what I love about her work is, is when she talks about the power of self-kindness, and there are over 5000 studies on this. So anybody who wants to check it out, it’s extraordinary and it impacts our mental health or physical health or innovation. She went on and on and on and on and on one of the best pieces of evidence-based insights that she shares in her research, and I love this, where she says, Okay, if we’re stuck in that really negative self-talk spiral, one of the things that we can do to hit the pause button, if you will say, Okay, what advice would I give a friend in the same situation? So if Rick showed up and said, Hey, I had this tough conversation, and here’s what happened, would I go on board and say, Well, you know, you idiot, what do you do that for him? No, I would say, like, we’re all human, which is a part of self-compassion. We are fallible creatures, we’re gonna mess up, we make mistakes, it’s essential to learn from them. 

 

Rick Jordan  

We’re always better at giving advice to our friends and taking our own advice for ourselves, aren’t we? Brilliant? Yeah,

 

Craig Dowden  

one of my favorite expressions is to take my advice because I won’t use it anyway. And it’s exactly the point that you shared. So one of the power of one of the things I love about her research around this is that if I step back and say, Okay, what advice would I give to a friend, as you said, we’re better at giving advice to others, and we are taking it. And then simultaneously what it does back to the shift in perspective that we’re talking about the reflection. Now I’m going to the balcony as sometimes they talk about it in the space of difficult conversations, we’re now in more observational, and what it does is a short circuit, that negative self-talk, and it allows me to have more perspective which maximizes the chances I’m going to give an insightful answer and what she asks, and I think it’s very provocative. She’ll say, Well, if this is advice that you would give to a friend or a family member, or a loved one, and it’s good advice, what makes this you know, not good advice for you? So very powerful once again, reflection, opportunity. 

 

Rick Jordan  

That’s awesome, Craig, man, we’ve gone from the woodshed to the balcony today, brother. It’s been a phenomenal conversation. And I appreciate you. It looks like we can find you. I mean pretty much everywhere but Craig dowden.com. And man, I appreciate your work. I appreciate everything that you’ve done. You’ve given a lot of insights today. I hope people can take some sound bites from this episode because it’s like all that they’re not even one-liners are just good, solid advice and ways to move. And I’m excited because for everyone listening, it’s I don’t know if it’s published yet or not. But Craig, I mentioned earlier has a podcast that we’re about to record an episode of me on his show, which I’m very grateful and honored to go on the show to Craig, tell everybody about your podcast and we’ll wrap this up brother for today.

 

Craig Dowden  

No, thank you. This was awesome. And I admire everything that you’ve done that you’ve accomplished and more importantly, who you are and how you go about your space in the world. I think that’s such a critical part. That’s why I want to welcome you to my podcast, Do Good to Lead Well, it comes out every Thursday, and I interview top CEOs selling authors, amazing thought leaders, and Rickie Fowler and it’s awesome in certain times I have the privilege of it’s a unique experience. So this has just been an absolute joy and thank you so much

 

Rick Jordan  

wonderful, Greg, my man. You’re amazing. Appreciate your insights first ever PhD on the show. With all in with Rick Jordan. It’s been an amazing conversation. Thanks, brother. Thank you