About the Episode
Today, I’m joined by an extraordinary guest, Craig Dalon, host of the top-rated podcast “Do Good and Lead Well.” Craig, known for his insightful discussions on leadership and ethics, shares his unique perspective on building a successful career and life. We dive deep into the nuances of ethical leadership, the importance of making a positive impact, and how to lead with integrity in today’s complex world. This episode is not just about my journey; it’s a dialogue between two minds passionate about making a difference. Join us as Craig and I explore the intersection of success, leadership, and doing good in the world.
About Craig
Craig Dowden (Ph.D.) is the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, and Amazon bestselling author of A Time to Lead: Mastering Your Self… So You Can Master Your World, which he wrote with Alan Mulally, the legendary former CEO of Ford Motor Company. He is also a highly respected executive coach with the Forbes Coaches Council as well as an award-winning speaker who delivers interactive, evidence-based workshops that translate the science of leadership, team, and organizational excellence into everyday practice. His podcast, Do Good to Lead Well, which is based on the title of his first bestseller, is rated in the top 0.5% of podcasts. Craig is a regular contributor to, and featured expert in, top-tier leadership and business publications including Forbes, CEOWORLD, the Financial Post, the Huffington Post, Financial Times, the Globe and Mail, and Psychology Today.
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Episode Topics:
- Gain insights from Craig Dalon, a renowned leader in ethical leadership.
- Learn about the intersection of success and positive impact.
- Discover strategies for leading with integrity in challenging times.
- Be inspired by stories of resilience and ethical decision-making.
- Understand the importance of doing good while leading well
Rick Jordan
What’s shakin, hey, I’m Rick Jordan today, we’re going all in. What’s shakin, everyone? Hey, it’s good to have you on, we’re gonna do things a little different than what we normally do today. I just got off recording a podcast and this podcast, I’ve got a good-sized show at the top 2% of the world, but this show was called Do Good and Lead Well, and it’s top point 5% in the world. And there’s a lot of stories I tell on this, about business, about scaling about branding. And I get very, very vulnerable. I mean, it’s like, it was almost a cathartic experience. For me, I literally just got done recording it with an amazing host. And that I had something to teach you guys today about leadership styles and different quadrants to fall in which we’re going to do that for the next one now, because this was just so it’s so fresh, like I just got off it legit right. And it’s interesting because this normally isn’t this way this background with the company with my company reach out back there, my MSP, what it usually is the Rick Jordan branding and all that. But because of that, like led into It was no coincidence. And it led to some really amazing things. You’re going to learn a lot from this, I know you’re going to pick up a lot from this, and I know that you’re going to feel it deep inside your heart. And I know that you’re going to be able to take this and actually do something with it tomorrow and apply it right away so that you can see some amazing shifts in your life. This is it’s a lot about business. It’s a lot about your heart a lot about your mindset. And I know you’re going to enjoy it. So here we go. It’s around 15 minutes long five zero. So grab a drink grab a Scotch if you want actually I have a bottle in here, right? I might grab one too. And enjoy it’s going to be phenomenal. My own personal experience with this was incredible. Let’s play it.
Craig Dowden
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Do Good to Lead Well Podcast Series. I’m your host Craig Dowden. And it’s an absolute pleasure to have you here today. I’m excited to have this conversation. As soon as Rick and I were able to get this in our calendar I was like, I cannot wait to have this discussion. Before we begin a quick note of gratitude and thanks for your ongoing support, your likes, your shares, your comments, and your suggestions, do good to Lead Wells is now ranked in the top 0.5% of podcasts globally. So that cannot happen without your support. And fortunately, through amazing guests like Rick Jordan, I’m going to do a very quick intro because there’s so much for us to talk about today. So Rick is the CEO and founder of ReachOut Technology, which is one of the best cybersecurity and IT management firms in the United States. Impressively, he took it from a startup to a public company without the influence of outside money from private equity. Not surprisingly, Rick, Rick has become a nationally recognized voice in cybersecurity business and ethics and speaks to audiences he’s interviewed. See, he’s also the host of a top-rated podcast all in with Rick Jordan, so reaching fans in 29 countries. So a global podcast, a frequent expert guest on ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox. He’s also a featured speaker at NASDAQ, Harvard West Point Military Academy, and the best-selling author of his book Situational Ethics. He also works with an OG shark and consults with the White House. So that’s kind of like you know, and what I love is kind of amazing guests off. It’s a CEO. It’s a best-selling author. We have both right here this afternoon. So Rick, super warm welcome to the program.
Rick Jordan
Thanks, Greg. What’s shakin, man? I appreciate the great bio there that you read. It’s you got my long one.
Craig Dowden
Well, and I was gonna say that’s very good. I could have kept going on. Thank you. Thank you. Right and good to be here. And, some of the audience members are many of the audience members or founders, their executives, and growing companies and organizations and you just have such an amazing entrepreneurial journey. So can you take us through I know it’s, it’s been a lot of effort to build what are some of the key points in in that journey? Some of the lessons on how you’ve built such an incredibly successful organization?
Rick Jordan
That’s a good question to start with man and I knew it for a reason because I don’t know if this is just audio only I didn’t actually check that for if it’s a video also that you publish, but be behind me I mean if you’re watching this cool you can see exactly this but if you’re just listening to this, I’m in my studio right and behind me typically when I get on shows like Greg’s which amazing show. We have on my show, too, we had a great exchange. And yeah, it was it was a good time, man. But usually, I have my RJ logo behind me right the purple with the triangles and everything because that’s my thing. But today, for some odd twist the fortune is the logo of my company behind me ReachOut Technology. And I have this as a background when I do CEO talks on Mondays or anything that’s specific to the company itself, like I did a guest on a live stream, because we did go public just a couple of months ago. And it was on a live stream for shareholders. And I was interviewed because it was like, overnight, we ended up having over 1000 shareholders by going public by doing a reverse merger, which is phenomenal. You need 300 to go to NASDAQ. So it’s like we’re already set there. That’s, I mean, just incredible gratefulness that I have. But you asked, the question is like, how did I like, take you on that journey? How did I do it? I always get asked that question. And it’s, it has to do with like, what’s behind me right here in that CEO talk that I talk about, as we continue to scale, because I mean, it was just four years ago, when I guess it’s 2024. So we’ll say five years ago now, back in 2018, when we actually broke the million dollar mark and revenue, you know, and even going into the pandemic, it was, I think about eight people working for the company at that time, you know, and I think 2 million in revenue, and that was just three years ago. Now here we are a public company with eight figures in revenue and 78 employees. So I mean, it just snowballed man. And the way that I’ve done that is through culture. And the way that I’ve built culture is through branding. And I’ve always, you know, what, I was a lifestyle business prior to 2018. And what I mean by a lifestyle business, if it’s entrepreneurs that are listening, you know, leaders, whatever, it’s, and coming off anytime I talk a lot, but this is a good story. I’m actually Craig, this is good, man. I’m actually speaking directly from my heart today. You know, and it’s, uh, I do that a lot. But at the same time, it’s it’s weird, man. Because today, maybe it’s you, it was a good thing. I say that as a compliment. Maybe it’s you because I mean, we’ve had a good conversation already. But it’s it’s a very safe space. And I think this is a different, not a different wreck. But it’s it’s a different side of me, you know, because my show is very driving, right? And here, I’m talking about, like, how did I get to where I was, and that first several years, I mean, the first decade, if I, if I go back and look at it, I did, what a lot of entrepreneurs will do in business is that will build it up to a point to where it’s, it’s comfortable, and it’s a lifestyle. And you don’t have to have a million dollars a year in revenue to be comfortable financially, as a business owner, right, I’m not gonna say an entrepreneur. But as a business owner, you don’t have to have a million dollars in revenue a year to be comfortable. When you get to like the half a million dollar mark, which means you might have one or two employees, if you’re a service-based business, you know, or you’re turning a decent amount of product, you know, you’re making some good margin on it. You can afford a home a nice sized home, you can afford nice vehicles for you, you’re your partner, you can afford to feed your kids. When I started, I could barely even afford to feed my kids, because I was laid off when my twins were born. That’s when I started down this entrepreneurial journey that those first several years, man, it’s like, I didn’t know or couldn’t recognize that, that gaping hole inside of me, for me specifically. And when I was just talking about there was nothing, there’s nothing wrong with having a lifestyle business. Because there’s a lot of awesome business people, a lot of entrepreneurs that might even have, you know, might even call themselves serial entrepreneurs, and they’ve got five businesses, and each of them is doing $100,000 Each and revenue. So they’re, they’re making that half a million in revenue, and they’re happy. That’s awesome, man. You know, for me, it just wasn’t enough for me. And it has nothing to do with an ego or anything. It’s just like, I’m capable of more. And I want more I know I’m put on this earth to do more. I know I’m meant to impact more than just eight people around me that work for me. Then I started looking at like, how do I get that across? Because I mean, we had a great culture with eight people. But how do I do this? And branding was legitimately personal branding was legitimately the answer. The very first thing I did Craig was I was walking through an IT conference, right? Because it’s like, deep down inside of me. And it’s like, I was the first Geek Squad agent in Chicago. You know, I was tinkering around with computers when I was like 10 You know, it’s they were just interesting to me Tech was always interesting, but I never I never looked at it for like the shiny object, you know. Case in point The new Apple Vision Pro. Right? Up until today, literally today, I’m like, Dude, that thing’s like five grand, you know, and here I am, I have an eight-figure company, I’m financially well off. And I’m like, it’s like five grand. And I’m like, that’s great. But it doesn’t look like something I’m gonna use. You know, and the only reason I do, the only reason I get a new iPhone every single year, is because it’s expected of me as a CEO of a tech firm to have the latest tech. For real, it’s like, there’s not much difference between this phone in the last two to three years. There isn’t I mean, even three cameras, it’s like, it’s got the periscope camera now and the 15 Promax. So I can zoom 5x instead of 2x. Like, whatever. Who cares for real, but the Vision Pro, it’s like the same thing. I’m like, you know, that’s, that’s a great concept. But when I saw, like, the CEO of Netflix, come out and say, it’s, it’s just too small of a market, we’re not going to make any of our content for that. And it’s like, I was in the same lane as him. It’s like, it’s a shiny object. So when I take a look at these things, you know, being that nerd, way back when to the points where I was walking through an IT conference where I was going with the story, and I see a guy there that that is pitching, hey, sign up for my program, and I’ll get you on TV. Like interesting. And I’ve always been on stage and as a musician in churches, and you know, playing in front of literally 1000s of people, you know, as a worship pastor, because I’m an ordained Pastor, I helped plant three churches in the Chicago area. And then I’m looking at this guy, I’m like, well, that’s interesting, it seems just like it’d be kind of fun. And that’s important too, bro, that is important is to continue to have fun, even though I’m going through two effing audits right now, from going public to simultaneous audits. Dealing with auditors is the worst. You know, and they work for me, I’m paying them. It’s not like the IRS. It’s like I’m paying them to do this. And they’re nonresponsive, take a long time to respond, and don’t have a sense of urgency around this stuff with real-life consequences. You know, it’s like, just doesn’t compute with me. Yeah. And still, it’s like, I get off this frustrating meeting. And I’m like, Man, that sucked. And yet, I actually get to do this stuff. I’m grateful I get to do this. Because there’s not many CEOs of public companies that have ever existed, you know, it’s like a few 1000. That’s it. You know, that’s it a few 1000 Out of the US population of 325 million. You know, it’s not many dudes. So I’m like, wow, it’s like, kind of cool. It helps set in. And I see this guy. And I’m like, that’s the same thing. It’s like, how many people do I know going? They throw on TV, right to talk about the current events or a book or whatever? It’s like, not many. So I’m looking at I’m like, Hmm, that’d be kind of fun. So I’m asking him, I walk up to like, I want to know how many people how many of these IT people, these tech nerds that are here at this conference, because they’re all business owners, they all own managed service providers, IT consultant firms. How many signed up with you today? And his name is Clint Arthur, by the way, he’s been on the show, people can look them up. He’s got great programs if you want to start down this road, I did in 2018, he awesome guy, throwing a shameless plug. He’s become a friend after these years. And he looks at me and goes, Man, it’s like immediately as like his guard dropped, and the salesman in them dropped. And he says, you know, this crowd, man, he’s like, they just don’t get it. Right. And I’m like, Well, okay, well, even beyond the reason that I’m like, This looks fun. And it looks like something that could benefit me. I said, because of just what you said, literally, because nobody else here is doing it. I’m gonna do it.
Craig Dowden
There’s a lesson in that for sure.
Rick Jordan
So, I signed up for that for the TV thing that he’s also like, I got the speaking thing to like, that sounds great. He’s like, you’re gonna come and speak at the NASDAQ boardroom. And you’re going to be on the Jumbotron. You’re going to speak at an entrepreneurial event there. I’m like, sweet, sign me up for that too. But in addition, that led to things like Harvard, you know, the Harvard clubs of Boston in New York, and no joke, like the very first entrepreneurial speaking engagement that I did was in the NASDAQ boardroom. Before I even went on TV, and I’ve got photos of me on the Jumbotron photos of me speaking in the NASDAQ boardroom, and I kid you not that what just kind of cropped up a couple of years later, like three years later, when somebody approached me and said, Hey, have you ever thought about taking your company public? I was like, I never have, like, Well, we found this photo of you in the boardroom in NASDAQ. because they saw me speak at a different event, and then that’s when it connected. They’re like, oh, like we’re talking to two other companies right now to figure out because they were a consultancy firm for a Regulation A plus offering. It’s a funding program for private companies to offer shares to the public. It’s kind of like a baby IPO. You know, it’s a first step. A lot of people don’t know that. There are actually stages in public companies. We did the reggae first. And then we reversed and listened to OTC which is actually fully going public and listed and reporting, which was just a couple of months ago, the next step that we intend is an uplifting to a senior exchange, like NASDAQ. But a few years ago, when they pitched this to me, they were like, we’re talking to two other companies, we just have one question right now for you. What would you do with the money if you had it? And I was like, Well, that’s easy. I’m like, and I read the write-off, oh, my god, we’ll go buy other companies. I’m like, you know, this event that you saw the photo at where I connect with them, nobody understood this, everybody’s trying to scale scaling is hard. A third of these guys are going to go away in a couple of years. Because when they’re just business owners, that cannot scale to a point to where it overcomes the headache of being that business owner and all the pressures and stresses that you have, and there’s no nationwide brand, because everybody searches, I got hacked, help me on Google or, you know, show me an IT guy near me or something like that, and you get like 1000s of names. The thing that’s missing from this industry is a nationwide brand and a face to that brand. And I talk about this all the time, man is about being findable. You know, when I teach about sales, or even just running a business, it doesn’t matter if you’re a multimillion-dollar eight-figure company like I am. Or if you’re just doing the lifestyle business, you still have to be findable. You have a brand, whether you like it or not, it’s just a question of, whether are you cultivating it. And that’s what I do bringing this story full circle, because of this background that’s behind me today, the company, the company background, every single Monday, I have a CEO talk, which is a live stream that’s broadcast to the entire organization, because we’re in all four time zones. Now. In the whole us we’re adding more acquisitions, like how do I continue to instill that culture and cultivate that because everybody now within the company is not just a representative of the Reach Out brand, but it even falls underneath the Rick Jordan Brand. Right? How do I continue to instill that culture every single week, that’s one of the ways that I’ve been able to do it so far. So sometimes they turn into podcasts, you know, what will repurpose the content. Sometimes it’ll just be this right here to where I’m like talking straight to them, giving them news about the company or dealing with some very specific trends in the industry, you know, to let them know, Hey, this is what’s coming or getting them excited. Like when we came out of the year, and it’s like, listen, everybody gets shares in the company. We just went public for a Christmas bonus. Everybody’s a shareholder now. That’s legit. We did that. And it’s, it’s, it’s no, it’s no coincidence that this is up here today. And we’re talking, you know, that, in a nutshell, that’s the journey, man is the journey from the lifestyle business into identifying that a personal brand matters and branding in general matters, to where it’s just like, if you see that most other people are not doing something, it might be a good idea for you to actually be the one to step out and do it.
Craig Dowden
Absolutely. I love that. And congratulations. I think it’s it’s awesome. And it’s not surprising, and it’s part of why I was you know, many reasons why I was excited to have you on and there will be some videos people can check out the the logo the in the back. And I think so, so many different pieces, right? I think as you were saying, look for opportunities where people are not, I think there’s lots of value there in terms of going Hey, so what could that look like? Yeah, and I really appreciate your observations. Well, Rick about the brand, our brand exists, whether or not we’re intentional around it or not. And I love the intentionality you bring to it. And it just sounds like that’s a strategy you’ve used in all kinds of different areas, including building the culture. One question I want to ask you about because I think this is it may be counterintuitive and even challenging for some listeners because you’ve described it you say, you know, like, essentially, it’s important to leverage failure as a stepping stone to success. Right. Like, I think that’s so, and for many of us is like, ah, failure, failure, run, run, you know, this is not good this is going to hold me back. Can you talk about the important role of failure in terms of informing and really elevating our success?
Rick Jordan
Yeah, absolutely. Man. I mean, I’ve fallen on my face a lot. Ironically, a good friend of mine, David Meltzer, was just calling me while we were talking, I had a thought about bringing him on speakerphone and like to inject him into the show. But he’s got a great podcast too. That’s part of the the entrepreneur group, you know, entrepreneurs, and they called the playbook that guy Awesome, he’s a good friend. But there’s something that he says about failures, like paying the dummy tax. And I was just talking with with one of my VPS about this this morning around that dummy tax. And it’s like when I, when I coach, internal employees or external people, it’s like, I’ve already fallen on my face on this, and especially those that I really, really care about, you know, especially those in my inner circle that work for me, right that I’ve developed close personal bonds within friendships, where it’s like, I want them to succeed so badly. It’s like, listen to where I’ve screwed up, please. That’s the best way that I can teach is like, listen to where I screwed up. Because I’ve done that. And just like within yourself, if it takes you 10 years to accomplish something the first time, right, like 10 years to go public, really more like 13. It’s like the next time because I keep saying it’s like, this is not going to be it’s my first one, but it’s not going to be my last one. Because now that I’m going through it, I’m seeing and it’s like, Well, I think I could probably do it in a year next time. For real, it’s like that 10-to-one rule. So it’s the same thing with the dummy tax when somebody else is paid that where you see their failures, it doesn’t have to necessarily be your failure that you learn from, you can learn from somebody else’s failure and accelerate that, that trajectory for yourself as well. So it’s important, though, and I’ll talk about this from a parenting perspective as well. You know, because I’ve had my own share of failures. I mean, probably the biggest financial failure that I’ve had was an event that I was going to put on in 2019. My commitment in cash just to the venue was about $750,000. So three-quarters of a million dollars, large event, right, I had tons of great speakers lined up, I actually stole a lot of grant card ones speakers from 10x That year, you know, and they were coming to speak at this event. And then I know, on a whim the venue, material materially breached the contract. You know, which like, put the whole thing belly up. And I mean, I learned a lot of lessons in this too, because even after the fact talking with lawyers, and they’re like, listen, every single one, like, you have a legitimate case here. The issue is that they’re a public company coming back to the public company thing, it’s like, right there a casino, they’re just gonna outspend you, man, they will bleed you dry in legal fees, the way more than three-quarters of a million dollars. So they’re like, do you have that much money to put into this? And I’m like, I know that I understand what you’re saying. I’m picking it up. And you’re telling me it’s gonna cost way more. And I think the phrase exactly, it was good money going after bad money. Right. And so going through that, but however, it was the way that I handled it. And I’ll say this, and this is, this is not to say that I’m awesome. You know, besides that, I know that I am. I’m not saying this. I hope everybody listening. Yeah. I hope everybody listening can actually say that about themselves too. Because I do I think I’m pretty awesome. And it’s because of how I know that I show up for other people. You know, and it’s because I know my intentions behind things. I know, I know where I’m coming from on that stuff. And there are just certain things that are facts. And a Navy SEAL helped me separate that before. I’m like, I don’t want to sound arrogant. He’s like, Well, arrogance is like exaggeration of the truth, you know, and very self-centered in your intentions he goes, is what you’re about to save factual and, and I’m like, Well, yeah, it is. And he’s like, Well, then it’s just truth, man. It’s up to the other people to take it, how it’s gonna take it. So people who are listening, understand when I say that, I’m awesome. It’s like, the reason why I’m awesome is because I show up for other people in the way that I do. And in this event, all the speakers it’s like, listen, I refunded all the tickets. At that point, even though we’d already spent all the dollars coming in to commit to the venue, right? And then we still compensated for flights for speakers who were coming out because it was going to be a revenue share model from the stage, right? So even the expenses that they put out, so here you go, please take this back. Lo and behold, one of the friendships and really like a mentor-mentee relationship that I made out of that was with Kevin Harrington, the OG shark that you mentioned in my bio, we started having breakfast and another event once a quarter. And he got to know me, I got to know him. I just walked up to him after I had him involved in this and I’m like, You want company? And he’s like, yeah, so I told him like, this is what I’m doing, like with Reachout. And, like, Would you like to get involved? Because this is the trajectory? And he’s like, No, I don’t. I mean, he told me no, and I’m like, Okay, why is that Kevin? And he’s like, Well, I don’t get involved. And it’s another good lesson for people I don’t get involved in things I don’t really understand. He’s like, and I don’t understand the cybersecurity space or the IT space. I’m like, Okay, well, what can I tell you I mean, that’s where my like sales mind goes, right? Yeah. How can I overcome this objection? Yeah. So I started in it. And he’s like, listen, I just don’t have the bandwidth for that right now. It’s a complex industry. I’m like, it kind of is, yeah, I get that. But then we just started having breakfast. And every once in a while, bring it up. He told me no three times over the course of like two and a half years until finally I was sitting there with him. And I don’t know what it was because I had been teaching him about the industry and just casual conversation. And I told him, I’m like, Kevin, it’s a freaking roll-up. It’s like, oh, well, I can do that. I understand that business model. You’re going public. Cool. I understand the capital markets, he was involved in Celsius, energy, energy, you know, like a multi-billion dollar company, you know, 20, plus companies with $100 million and more in revenues, like I can build the business. Yeah, let’s get going on this thing. That’s all it took. But then the first event I spoke at branding, coming back to that maybe that’s an intentional brand, the first event I spoke at, announcing that we were the first in the industry to go this route. He came out, flew out at his own expense, promoted me, introduced me on stage, and just had amazing, amazing interaction with him. And there’s one thing that he said, and this is important for people. So when I say that, you know, it’s like, I’m awesome. It’s like, the only reason I can say that confidently and ethically is because of how I show up. I mentioned that. But what he said about me, which I’ll hold on to this because I take it to heart. And he said, You know what, when I told Rick No, for those years, we really got to know really got to know his heart. And what’s more important is that everything he said was going to happen that he was going to do. He did. And I watched him for those two and a half, two years for those two and a half years. And even right now it’s like all the doubters, man, I kid you not all the doubters that told me that there’s no way you’ll make it to go public, everybody, and it’s like even, even some investors, no joke, like the early ones three years ago that that jumped in. And like, at that point, it was just a rock bottom price per share. And they said, it’s like when you’re going public, I’m like, my intention is three years will be listed. And a year into it. They’re like, you’re not public yet, right? I want my money back. I was like, Well, no, that’s not how this works. That’s not that type of investment. Some of them were that way, you know, smaller ones. By the way, there’s a lesson to the ones that put in several $100,000. To do that. They didn’t ask for anything back. The ones that put in $5,000. Dude, those were the ones that are like, I don’t want my investment back out. Yeah, you know, it’s it’s such an interesting concept. And I never, I never really understood that until I went through it. So this is the dummy tax right, is that it’s a lot easier to ask for more money than it is for less money. Because you want to get people behind it that actually can catch on to the vision not that are just watching the ticker every single day to see if their five grand is going to turn into $5,050. Right. So make 50 bucks on that day. The more patient ones understand that this is a process.
Craig Dowden
Well, and in a couple of things, because and thank you these stories are great, and the insights and appreciate having the authentic Rick, you know, I just said a different energy to the conversation in terms of how you’re showing up. I love that as you’re sharing that story. And then with Kevin as well. Right, like, basically. And coming back to the I believe you said the Marine, right? It’s kind of like you’re just you’re sharing things with him. And what I love about what you’re saying is you basically just put your ego aside when he said no, like, I’m not interested. It didn’t stop your passion. It didn’t stop your visioning. It didn’t stop your relationship. You’re like, okay, cool. And then and then what else can I talk about? And it wasn’t? Well, if he doesn’t respond favorably the next time I’m going to you just kind of, and I really appreciate this, you know, it’s like, you had this vision, you have this idea. And we’re able to just continue on that path, regardless of how Kevin responded. And then once again, when the opportunity presented yourself, you’re like, oh, here, and then it was like, key lock, click. That was it. So you know, how were you able to? As you, you know, you’d said, Hey, I’m awesome. And then also you put your ego in check if you will because you didn’t, he didn’t hurt your feelings when you said, Hey, I’m not interested. So tell us about that journey. Because I think that’s really important for people to listen to all of us around how to ensure we stay connected.
Rick Jordan
It’s, it’s not something that’s ever easy to hear. Right? Yet, it’s always something to learn from when you get told no. That word no is I fully believe I mean, it’s two letters, you know? The shortest type of word that exists in the English language at least. And you know, in German, it’s four letters, right? Nine. But so what will stick with the English language? One of the shortest words is no. But it can be the most powerful. All right? There’s a lot when you’re doing when you’re doing really, really, really big things, or when you have a vision for something that’s really, really big. You will have way more opposition to that. The greater the dream, the greater the opposition. Interesting. Yeah. And it’s it, you’ll hear know a lot more and that’s, that’s typically it’s like almost think of a if there’s any Marvel fans out there, right? Like, like Iron Man, in The Avengers, right? There’s Dr. Strange. And he goes into this, like, weird time warp thing, and he’s like, viewing the future. And he comes back. And Ironman asks, it’s like, how? How’d you see he’s like, you know, 13 million possibilities or something like that he’s like, and how many of those do we win? And he goes one, there’s, like, just literally one possibility. And, well, I think that there’s a lot of ways to accomplish things that you want to, there’s a lot of paths you can take, there’s a lot, there’s an infinite amount of decisions along the way, there’s a lot of yeses, there’s, there’s 100 times more nose, along that path. It doesn’t change your desired end, state, or outcome. No matter what decisions you make in between how you fall off the road, get back on the road, whatever it’s like, it’s infinite possibilities, almost like those books. When I read when I was a kid, those choose-your-own-adventure books. I don’t know if anybody else said, it’s like, you know if you want to walk through the door, turn to page 47. If you want to go back outside, turn to page 86. You know, and it’s like, cool, you always got to the end. And the end, ironically, almost always looks the same. In those books, and that’s the same with this. So when you get told no, by these things, it’s the only way you get stuck and you hit the nail on the head grade, the only way that you get stuck is if you let your ego get a hold of you in those moments. Because then your ego becomes a limiting factor. What are you talking about? I get the best stuff ever. You know, I can’t believe that you know, why don’t you tell me no, or like saying, I’m awesome. Why don’t you tell me? No, I know. I’m saying I’m awesome today. But it’s literally because of how I show up for other people, not how I show up for myself. And when I say that I’m awesome. You know, now there’s a whole nother talk about self-care and self-talk and all of that. Right? But with that nose, those noes are something that should fuel you. Not keep you away from what you want, because you’re the one that allows that you might get a no. And that no, most of the time. And this is true with the story that I told you about Kevin, whether it’s in sales, whether it’s with a girlfriend, whether it’s with anything, a no usually means not now,
Craig Dowden
right?
Rick Jordan
No, very rarely means not ever. That not now is to it’s like okay, what do I need to do in order to create the environment around this and the right type of situations to where that No, can even become a maybe? Right? Right? Because a yes is so definitive. And it’s it’s the duty Yes, is the most difficult thing to get to know is way easier to get to? Yeah, it’s it’s more comfortable for people to say psychologically it’s way more comfortable for people to say because it’s protective. When they say no, it’s like, cool, I get excited, because I understand. It’s like there’s something there that I need to learn some other resource and I need to obtain some other mindset that I need to have to change that no one to a maybe.
Craig Dowden
Well, and I love this, how you’re unpacking this for us, Rick, and like I think it’s interesting to think about this perfect example with Kevin if our ego lashed out so we are bruised ego lashed out and said that Kevin, what are you talking about? I doubt you’d have the next breakfast or the representation. Exactly yeah, yeah. Goodbye. Or if we turn that ego inwards where bruised ourselves where it’s like well, I can’t this isn’t and we kind of will now game over and what I love again love to get your perspective on because how you talked about and I was part of your Choose Your Own Adventure books as well going to page what’s what’s really cool. And this lesson is so important for all of us right is that I also wonder aloud about when our ego gets attached to the house and there’s a singular path like this is the right and the only path and what I love about what you’re sharing, right? Because like, there are lots of ways to get there. So let’s not look at the right path or the only path. And I also love you’re asking the question, What am I missing?
Rick Jordan
Yeah. That’s always the question asked, man, it’s, it’s pretty cool. I there’s, I just look back. And I reflect, because I haven’t I’ve told versions of these stories. And even more so like pieces of the stories over the years, because, you know, in bite-sized chunks, they make good anecdotes, when you’re on stage talking to people, you know, they do, but not into the depth that I have today, or like the fluidity that I have today. So I’m grateful, first, for the opportunity to be able to do that with you today. You know, they take this path and our conversation, and you just like letting them let it ride. That’s phenomenal. Thank you, for letting it flow. I’m also grateful that I have these stories to tell man that I look back. And it’s like, as I started this, it’s like, yeah, I get to do this. And I look back, it’s like, I yeah, I was the lucky one that got to lose the three-quarters of a million dollars. Of course, I say that in jest, but at the same time, there’s so much good that came out of it. Trust me, I would have preferred not to lose the money. learn lessons around that. But it generated so much good out of it. And it’s it’s how I responded to it. It’s how I show up.
Craig Dowden
And again, I’m so privileged in the podcast, and in the work that I do speaking with extraordinarily successful people, right? And then what I love about what you’re sharing and again appreciate the granularity that we’re walking through this together. So I have the same level of gratitude and reverse. Is that to me, what strikes me about you and what’s really informed your success is almost this insatiable curiosity without judgment?
Rick Jordan
So, great phrase way to phrase it, man.
Craig Dowden
Well, Oh, thank you. It just seems like as you’ve gone through things, your focus on what you can learn versus what the outcome is your focus on how this informs your path forward versus, well, what’s going to happen here or how someone’s, it just seems like that has just been such a powerful guiding force for you. And you keep that with you. It’s almost like a superpower in some ways.
Rick Jordan
Yeah, I, you could call it that. And if there’s a way to cultivate that, in anyone, it’s a before I started with that, there’s it’s like, I’ve never told this either, actually, that this just came to my mind. It’s like with the event when I say I lose $750,000.03 quarters of a million dollars. It’s like they’re like, Oh, well, that’s just because he has the money, he can absorb it. And it’s like, it took no joke three years to dig out of that hole to the point to where, you know, I had an Amex platinum card. And you know, coming from literally no income when I started the business to be able to slap 100k at a time and get it approved on that Amex platinum card was a big, positive journey for me, to the point where after this was there, it’s like, oh, there’s no revenue from this. I got like 300k sitting on this card right now. And calling American Express and being like, Guys, there’s no way because I mean, an Amex platinum you paid in full every month. Yeah, I’m like, you guys. This was the scenario. This is what happened, the thing fell through. There’s no revenue coming from this one. It was supposed to be a million dollars in revenue for this event, just two weeks from now. What are my options? Like well, and I had five cards from them in five cards, the AMEX platinum card, I had like a Hilton card. I had a general card that I use for groceries because I got like 6% back or something like that. One of the cards, you know, the AMEX platinum had no limit. But one of the AMEX cards I mean, for somebody who, who came from nothing, and now having a card with like a $60,000 limit of revolving accounts, it’s to say what do I do with this because I can’t pay you this month? Because this is what took place and like, they were really kind and like, you know what, it’s okay, we have a program for you. It’s called a hardship program. Like, what we can do is, it’s 3% interest, and like, that’s it. Um, like revolving cards have like 27% interest and like, no, it’s like 3% interest. We spread it out over three years of monthly payments. Now, here’s what the payment will be. And then the caveat that like, the only condition is that all your accounts get closed. I was like, Oh man, though, I look at that and it’s like that. It was very humbling in those moments to know that I had gone through a big failure. And at the same time, there was still a way forward for a company even as big as American Express. But of course, there were some challenges with that, too. So it’s like when I say I lost three-quarters of a million dollars, it wasn’t like, I just like, threw my hands up. And I was like that, okay? When people like, oh, yeah, he’s the CEO of a public company. It’s like, it took no joke three years, literally three years to climb out of that to generate more revenue to sell more. You know, which, by the way, one of my board members whenever there’s like, you know, we get crunched on cash or whatever, who always be like, Rick answers easy. I’m like, What’s that man? He’s a financial guy to like, just go sell some more shit. It’s one of the best lines of advice ever. Yeah.
Craig Dowden
Yeah, that’s a bumper sticker. Yeah.
Rick Jordan
Right. So digging out of that for three years, it was very, very real. And the second part that you were referencing there. I just lost my train of thought, but that’s okay. Because it was a part of it. I can’t What was your question again? On that, do you remember? Was
Craig Dowden
around curiosity? That’s it? Yeah. Your superpower? Yeah.
Rick Jordan
It’s how to cultivate that. That’s right. And how to cultivate and it’s cultivating curiosity, because I’m sure you’ve heard billionaires say this. I mean, like Mark Cuban, you know, it’s like, people that are naturally curious, are the ones that generally do well in life, you know, or if you want to use the word better use the word better. Right? You need to cultivate curiosity, though, because being interested in that in and of itself, and you mentioned that earlier, and I don’t know if this is like a great book and for the episode or not, you’re the host, you determine that it’s, that’s your job today. But cultivating curiosity is also killing your ego. Because being curious about other things, and other people and other things in this world, generally speaking, has nothing to do with you. Because it’s a different it’s a change in focus. It’s a change in perspective, rather than focusing inward, you’re looking outward. Rather than having a perspective of how this is affecting me. It’s a perspective of how is this affecting everybody else. It is a mindset shift and a killing of the ego. And it’s something that has to be practiced. And there’s, I’m sure there’s tools out there and everything, which maybe I’ll develop some now maybe this will be the next course for me. Right? Cultivating curiosity? Who knows the ideas that I agree with? It’s, I know, it’s that because I was one that was fortunate enough to be naturally curious, my mom tells stories when I was one year old, when years one year old, on the carousel on the merry-go-round. And I was always, not really necessarily enjoying the ride. But I was always like, looking up and looking at the gears and trying to figure out how the thing works. How am I going up and down right now, am I going in a circle, you know, just very naturally curious and around all those things? But there are times and this is how I know, there are times where I feel like I miss things. And it’s it’s, it becomes lost opportunities, or friction and relationships, you know, or just general peace. And when I take a look at that, it’s like, Oh, I’ve been focusing inward too much. I haven’t been actually paying attention and being curious about what’s been going on around me, which is why I let my ego rise up too high. So it’s not something that I’m immune to, I might be naturally curious. But it’s ego issues are not something that I’m immune to that anybody is really immune to. Some just have to work harder at it than others, you know, but awareness is the key. So, anybody that’s listening to this episode today, it’s like now you’re aware, because, you know, cultivating that curiosity, now you know, where the bottleneck is. And like most things, the bottleneck is you. So from here on out, you can take a look around I mean, walk in, it’s like you’re not just put on this planet to, go to work, pay bills, and die, that is so focused inward on you and what you’re experiencing, rather than looking outward to what others may be experiencing. It’ll resolve arguments faster. When you’re trying to when you’re trying to see what your partner or whoever is trying to try to experience from their perspective, you know, or somebody who works for you or who you work for what their situation is right now. Be curious. And the way to be curious is to push down your own ego and suppress your own ego. That way you can pay attention to other people.
Craig Dowden
Well, I agree with your assessment around a beautiful book and so I’m gonna I think it is and what I love As we just go back through, it’s almost like this incredible through line in our conversation around that curiosity. And I love the word that you brought to really emphasize here, as we’re closing our discussion, Rick is awareness raising? Yeah, yeah. And the more we can be aware of ourselves, and in particular, the more we can be aware of our environment, and what’s out there, and what we can learn, and how we can apply that and as you say, by killing our ego, and not allowing it, and to me, it really sounds like not allowing it to interfere with, you know, that awareness raising, it’s almost like the ego sounds like this messy thing that screws up the radio signal. And it’s like, put that aside. Right? And, and really focus on awareness and being curious. And I love there are so many great examples that you’ve shared. And thank you for being so open and vulnerable with the audience as well about, you know, some really profound experiences that you had in scary and what I love about the exercise with AmEx, I do I have to just Virtual High Five and think it’s so awesome for all of us to think about, like, I’m going to ask challenge people to think about, imagine how you would be in that circumstance, how many people would hide not call not be? What did you do? You leaned into that discomfort, right? You went and asked, and you raise your awareness or raise their awareness? Hey, here’s what’s going on. Rick, this has just been awesome. I’m so grateful for you, your perspective, and your authenticity. Any final words before we close the discussion today, this has been a treat, and there are so many great insights for all of us to reflect on and learn from
Rick Jordan
that’s awesome. Brother, I feel so full inside today after going through this with you today. And I hope that I mean, ego aside, I’m saying a little pun here, right? I hope this ends up being one of the biggest episodes that you’ve ever had because the message is profound. And dude, my heart is that just people can grasp on to stuff that I’ve said today to where you can just absorb it for your own and become aware of maybe some scenarios in your life, you know, and the things that I love are things that like what I get on some of these chat rooms for the stock to where people are now like buying the stock for my company, but then they post when I just say what’s shakin, in one of these, almost like it’s called stock twits. Right, that’s the site. It’s a forum for that. And then just yesterday, I see it’s like, Rick, thank you for jumping on here. There are next to no CEOs who engage directly with shareholders like this. By the way, I started following you on social media, I started listening to your podcast, and I’m sharing your messages every single day with my sons and my family. And dude, I mean, it’s, I get vulnerable this way because this is why I do this man. That’s why I talk about all these things in these stories and, and what I’ve gone through. Because if there’s just a little bit that I can bear for other people, so that you can understand that I paid that dummy tax, you could accelerate a little faster than me and go beyond me, please do so. Learn from these things, but let these raise your own awareness. And then that’s what’s going to break you free break you through, break you up everything in your life.
Craig Dowden
Well, I’m what and I have to say this in closing. So again, awesome. I just really am struck by your sense of gratitude for everything that comes your way, the highs, as well as the challenges, and then the perseverance and grit, the resiliency, the curiosity that can apply to those things. And I just have to say, I’m grateful our paths have crossed. And I’m not at all surprised by the extraordinary success that you’ve had the impact. And on me, and I know I’m the listener, this is just going to be this will be a very highly engaged episode with so many, people. So thank you, Rick. This has just been an absolute treat for me and continues to be awesome.
Rick Jordan
Thanks, Greg. I definitely will be here. For sure.
Craig Dowden
All right, everyone. So until next time, thanks so much for tuning in to do go good to lead Well, bye for now.