72 Hours to Trust a Stranger | Cammy Bowker

Episode Topics:

• Learn the real conversation starters predators use to target your kids online.
• Discover why prevention is 30 times more powerful than rescue efforts.
• Get practical scripts for talking to your kids about pornography without shame.
• Find out which popular games are being used to traffic children.
• Understand how to become the safe space your kids need when they’re scared.

 

Rick Jordan  

What’s shakin’? Hey, I’m Rick Jordan, and today we’re going all in. Every January, since 2010, the president of the United States has dedicated the month of January towards raising awareness around the different forms of human trafficking, and that’s what we’re talking about today, because my guest has been on the show before, and she’s amazing. She’s a freaking Pitbull when it comes to this, this fight that we’re in. And I can’t even think of the right words, because I get all fired up when we talk about this. You’ve seen me on different shows talk about this. It’s a passion of mine to protect our kids in everything. And I have a friend with me today. Cammy Bowker, welcome back!

 

Cammy Bowker  

Hi. Thanks for having me. Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you, too.

 

Rick Jordan  

You have so much going on. I mean, you are the CEO of Global Education Philanthropist, right? I’m reading this because there’s a lot here. It’s awesome. Obviously, a public speaker and educator will surely do this, but you’re fighting human trafficking again through education, right? Because of it, it doesn’t start or really stop with the rescue.

 

Cammy Bowker  

Right? We have a common phrase. We always say prevention beats rescue every time. And the reason I said that is because I personally help rescue hundreds of people and kids, and it’s, you’re not done there, you know, you don’t just, like, you know, hey, good. I got you right out to it after center, and you’re done now. No, like, there’s a lifelong, you know, process that still has to happen for that person, and so by the time the rescue happens for me, I’m like, yes, it’s I don’t really love the word Rescue, by the way, but I feel like that’s egotistical, but we can get into that topic at some point. Anyways, I feel like that’s a bad word, but that’s okay, because I think the survivors, it’s not about anyone that’s helping them. It’s about that person, but prevention, right? I mean, if you can, they’ve shown that the prevention dollars are 30 times more powerful than the rescue, than the aftercare, than all of it. Imagine if everybody listening to this right now, and you and I were able to do one thing, because we were empowered, because we knew what was going on, and we were all able to band together, but just prevent it from happening to one kid. Wouldn’t it be worth it, right? And so we have to kind of get everyone’s egos out of the way of like, who rescue, rescue, rescue, and prevention is going to beat it, and we have to start looking out for our kids, and then teaching our kids to look out for each other. And maybe on today’s show, we’ll kind of talk about some tips of ways people can do that and how they can help, and things like that. But yeah, I’m a retired school teacher, and I truly believe that the only catalyst for in long-term change is education.

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah, for sure, I’m with you on that too, because it’s, I mean, it’s the same in cybersecurity, in anything, right? I mean, even with, you know, I’m not really comparing these two things, but even when it comes to firearms, in the in the US and all the different sides and perspectives of the Second Amendment, right? It’s always coming down to education, with any industry that you’re a part of, you know, or any, any scenario that any, any cause, any fight that you’re in, and this, this one’s a big fight. And I mentioned, you know, that the president the United States ever since 2010 so that was during the Obama administration, when January was now dedicated towards raising awareness around human trafficking. And you mentioned a bunch of different ways, but I would love to dive into this. I know you say it’s ego, but there’s probably a pretty good reason I’m thinking in your head why you don’t like the word “rescue.” Why is that? What really is that?

 

Cammy Bowker  

For me, personally, I don’t love the Word Rescue, because I’ve had to go in to some of the darkest parts of the world, I guess. And how it’s just a weird term that survivors don’t love. I don’t love it just kind of seems like, Oh, that is about the person that was somehow able to, like, maybe break in a door, you know, however that scenario went and it was about the person doing that act, and it takes it away from the real person that was in immediate danger. Or, you know, it kind of just has this weird in this survivor world, as a really weird connotation; using the word rescue can actually be very offensive. So sometimes, for a lack of better words, I use the word rescue too, but I don’t love it, but we all it’s a kind of a common ground we all use.

 

Rick Jordan  

Well, yeah, no doubt. And I had a hunch that’s where you were going with that, too, because it take it almost, it takes the persona of a hero and gives that to the individuals that are diving in, rather than taking the focus off the individual that has been in that for so long.

 

Cammy Bowker  

I spent a year in San Diego going into these crazy places, right, with some other females that knew what they were doing and helping to get girls out of these situations. And we talked a lot about this Word Rescue, and that’s where I first got this paradigm shift, and it’s only because of the street experience that I saw. And the last thing I wanted was anyone to know that that’s what was going on. I just wanted to help this girl be her ride out to a safe place, and let’s keep you safe. And that was it had nothing to do with me or the other people that were with us. It was about that victim, and even the word victim, you know, you can. You could go on and on with the words, but rescue can be a stinger. But really, at the end of the day, as we talk about, okay, how can we prevent it? It’s it’s going to be it’s going to take a global It’s a global problem. It’s going to take a global solution. When we start talking about how people get out of trafficking, let’s change it to how we can stop them getting it in the first place. How can we slow this down? Because it’s the fastest growing crime in the world, right? Yeah, it’s so easy now, yeah.

 

Rick Jordan  

And for those, I mean, most of our listeners are listening, literally listening to this. But if you go on YouTube and check out Cami, I mean, she’s just a freaking beautiful woman, right? They used to be a schoolteacher. I know she talked about that you should go back and listen to the previous episode she was on. The episode she was on, too. But when she talks about rescue, Cami is one of the ones where it’s boots on the ground, like she’s saying, going in these weird places. I know this because I know her that will be carrying a rifle, wearing a bulletproof vest and a side arm, you know, literally going into provide the escape route—that’s a better phrase, isn’t it? Right? You’re forging the path to provide the escape for that individual and allow them the freedom that they so deserve. But it’s, I mean, I look at you now and it’s like, it’s hard to imagine. I’ve seen you in the other way. I’ve seen photos of you. We’ve been on the phone when you’ve been in the middle of an operation, yeah, yeah. It’s such a such a dichotomy, right? Because, I mean, you’re ready to throw down and at the same time you’re ready to just speak and use the power of words to help make an impact. It’s incredible.

 

Cammy Bowker  

Because once you’re at you see, at one time, you go, Gosh, how can we slow this down from happening to anyone else? Yeah, and really, it’s going to take people to start having difficult conversations. People think that human trafficking is something that happens in this far away place. And I’m here to tell you that it’s not necessarily always in a far away place. And I’m not trying to be like this, like doomsday guest that you’ve ever had, but I’m here to tell you that it’s, you know, it’s online. Think about what everything changed when COVID hit. Right? That changed the way that we buy our groceries, our clothes, everything shows up, and the same things for human trafficking. So there is a whole digital piece that, unfortunately, we just don’t know what’s happening. And so we have to have conversations of what is the root problem of this issue, like, why is this happening? Well, the root problem is pornography. And so we start, have to start having conversations with our kids about pornography. Your kids are seeing it. So if you’re listening to this, you have a kid, or a grandkid, or a NIC, or a nephew, younger or older than six years old, they have seen pornography. So you can’t say my husband,” “my wife, my brother. They don’t it comes looking for them like we were just talking before we started the show about the algorithms and things. And so these type of images are now in our children’s brains, as our brains are. Your children’s brains are formulating like that. They’re trying to grow and learn, and they’re getting public with pornography. And so we need to get rid of shame around pornography and say, Hey, let’s talk about it, just like you mentioned earlier, as a firearm, a firearm is only scary if you’re not educated about it, yeah, just like pornography, just like human trafficking. So once you have education about, like, okay, it’s rooted in pornography. So I look at it as like a tree, right? The root of the problem is pornography, and it’s manifesting itself around the globe as the leaves in the tree, and all of it is human trafficking as global mess we have but the deep root is pornography so and people can access that on their phones and now on their games, and on any game that you want. And if you wanted to trick a kid, you just go to the game that they’re playing and start pretending you’re one of them. And you and I have talked about how much data can be drawn from someone, and the listeners might not know that all we might want to touch on that, but really what it boils down to is, let’s start having a safeguard in our own homes, in our own communities, and having Crucial Conversations.

 

Rick Jordan  

There’s a phrase that I’ve used before that I’ve said I haven’t said in a long time, but I’ve always felt, as a parent myself in raising my kids, you know, because I have twins, boy and a girl, and then I have a younger one who’s going to be 12. I mean, they’re old now, they’re going to be, like, 15, right? But I know it’s, it’s crazy, but that’s, that’s my oldest son and my daughter are going to be 15 come in June. The phrase is, if they’re old enough to ask the questions, they’re old enough to know the answers. And I feel like a lot of things like porn or anything—I mean, sex, whatever, is always swept under the rug. It’s like, in this phrase that I recall even from my childhood, oh, we’ll tell you when you’re older, you know, when I would ask, like, well, wait a second, you know? And I think back to when I was six or seven, it’s like, if I’m asking the question, you know, there’s, I’m obviously thinking about it. So don’t, don’t shrug me off. And I’ve never done that with my kids either, and you definitely haven’t.

 

Cammy Bowker  

I know that about you, but this is something I want people to think about in that same format. For some reason, we have this conception. I say we as, like a human race, not putting anyone out. But we have this conception of, if we don’t talk about it, our kids are gonna be okay. Don’t talk about pornography. They’re gonna be okay. Don’t talk about sex, and they’re gonna be okay. No, how about just like, don’t talk about guns. And then, then, you know, the kids. Aren’t educated by it. They’re the ones that are people. They’re the ones that sometimes injured. But once you’re educated, then you know what. To do the same thing. We have to have no judgment. We have to talk to the kids about pornography. Because I do school assemblies and stuff, I still just can’t quite get out of schools. I love them so much. And I talk to teenagers and I’m like, I know you send notes. I know you see porn every day. And it goes from like this, Hey, here’s a teacher says no to like, Oh crap. Like, yeah, she does. And so parents need to understand, like, just the case. I called you on in Phoenix. I was like, What do I do? Can you help me tie these together? That case was one where it was like, we knew who had this girl. And so I made a fake Snapchat, and it was, I said, hi to him. He said, hi. Back to me. Send me a nude. And I realized that’s our kids normal day to any stranger, hi, hi, Send Me Nudes. And that is something that parents, unfortunately, it’s not comfortable to think about. It’s not easy sometimes, but that’s the reality. 

 

Rick Jordan  

And that’s that quick to exactly what you said, Hi, Send Me Nudes. It’s a third freaking message, yeah.

 

Cammy Bowker  

And within less than a minute, right? Yeah. And so we have to get rid of the like, oh my gosh, you pointing fingers, pointing fingers, and then take accountability about being a responsible parent and saying, Yeah, you might get mad at me if I ask you this. But also, if you get yourself in a situation, please know me and your dad, or however you’re co parenting, or whatever, can handle a conversation if you’ve already gone down this path. Because so many times we see kids go down the path of sending the nude and then regretting it, and then filling trapped and traffickers will, you know, blackmail with that photo I’m going to show your parents. I’m going to show everyone. So do the more? Do more. Do more. They’re never going to show your parents. You know, I tell teenagers this, no adult male or female is going to want to tell the world. I have a picture of 13 year old naked boy or girl on my phone, but in the moment, the kids don’t understand because they’re too scared to tell their parents. So these, these instances can happen on any game, any social media outlet that we have that has a chat feature. So we have to start understanding, okay, our kids are seeing things. They need to understand that they can come to you if they seem to be in danger and they don’t want to talk to.

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah, for sure, and that conversation is so crucial too, in order to provide this is what I was talking about when talking about when I was on Newsmax a couple weeks ago with Bob sellers, when he was saying going hard. He’s like, What about big tech and what about the algorithm, all the stuff? I’m like, I laughed at him. I’m like, Dude, what about responsible parenting? You know, don’t you think that that comes into play some places? Dude, you know, having those conversations, allowing your kids to feel open to where they won’t feel judged about bringing these very sensitive topics to you as a parent. That’s something that we need to foster again, within our households, because again, if it’s porn or sex or anything else, and you’re saying, I’ll tell you when you’re older, that doesn’t help them in any way whatsoever, it compounds the problem, because they’re already talking about it. They’re already talking about it with everybody else, but you

 

Cammy Bowker  

That’s right, they’re already getting it, they’re already seeing it, but you’re just someone they can’t talk to. Yeah, right? Unfortunately, like, you know, you look at the send me nude scenario. Okay, let’s imagine back in my days. Let’s say, You know what I’m saying is, like our kids, what they are raised in right now, is so crazy compared to some of us. So they’re right when they say, when they say to us parents, you don’t know what you’re talking about, in many instances, they’re right because I’m 40 something, I’ll just leave it at that, not later. No, I’m really 40.

 

Rick Jordan  

Cammy is really 33 okay?

 

Cammy Bowker  

When I was a kid. I mean, imagine the absolute asinine question of, send me a nude. You’d have to get this thing called a 35 millimeter camera. You’d have to snap the thing, maybe 100 pictures of it, send it to a photo booth guy, which they probably would never develop it. Then you’d have to put a stamp on it. You’d never get it to a boy. That’d be ridiculous,

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah? And so like a flash on the playground, right? He’s like, okay,

 

Cammy Bowker  

Whatever. No, now it’s like every conversation is over. Sexualized. People’s profiles are over sexualized. Everything is diluted, as far as any sort of sacredness and an intimate relationship like, I think that does fall back on the responsible parent piece. We can’t hand them an iPhone or an Xbox and extend it’d be like good luck to them, right? So it’d be like handing them accused to a Maserati. A Maserati is awesome. It does really cool stuff. But if you give the keys to a Maserati and say, here I’m going to take off, I’m going to go to the store, I got this cool Maserati in the garage. Here’s keys. Don’t turn it on. They’re going to go in, start pushing buttons, and then they’re going to drive it through the front door or the front garage, whatever. That’s the same thing with an iPhone, is we give them an iPhone with no instructions, and we hope that they’re not going to have a disaster happen. Of course, they’re gonna have a disaster happen. We have to talk to them. And so it’s our job as parents to do more. 

 

Rick Jordan  

And maybe there’s a because there’s this thing, right? Because if you’re shoving it under the rug with people you know, in the conversations with your kids, and everything else you’re saying, like I was saying, oh, we’ll just tell you when you’re older, you know. And I’m I’m hearing what you’re saying, I’m almost kind of comparing it. And this is where I’m wondering where, where does healthy sexuality come in? How do you feel about this? Because if I compare it to, like, abstinence is the best form of birth control, right? And if I hear you, it’s like, don’t post any of that, because that’s the best way to protect our kids. How do we. Promote healthy sexuality.

 

Cammy Bowker  

I think it goes back to the responsible parenting you were saying, right? I don’t think we should shame, like we have kids that are we have transgender but all of these things going on and really the world, like I said, that they’re growing up with they’re looking at sexual images, having sexual conversations at such a different age than we ever did. We were just looking at a study of an eight year old boy that was addicted to pornography, right? And then there was another case in the states where these little boys stoned a girl to death because she was six she wouldn’t do what they saw in a pornographic video. It’s like shocking that these young children are faced with such aggressive sexual images that their brain can’t comprehend it. So I just think, I think it goes back to the responsible parenting conversations of, okay, we’re safe, you know? You know, I’m safe to talk to your mom, safe to talk to, you know, what? What are you seeing out there? Like, did you send a nude? When’s the last time you saw a nude? Like, not make a big deal out of it. It’s just like a gun. Like, take it apart, put it back together. Like, let’s talk about it. So I also feel like it’s not the schools or the churches or someone else’s job to talk about sexuality with your kids. That’s the responsible parenting piece. So that’s a piece for parents to talk to their own kids about it. And I understand different family like, you know, might have different dynamics, but as far as in my family, what we what we would do is that’s that’s up to me to talk to my kids about what I feel is right and wrong, and that they can talk to me, even if their theirs might not align with me. Maybe they have questions about, you know, I just have my daughter in a different country, and she’d never heard some of these other terms, like binary and different things that kids in that country were talking about that hurt, that hurt her age, transgender things, and saying, Mom, what does that mean? And so we were able to have some really good conversations. And I think it has to come from, you know, let’s just talk about it. What are you seeing and a place of love, so there’s just no judgment. Yeah, the kids are seeing pornography. They’re scared. Their brain does weird things. Their body does weird things. Our bodies are designed to respond to these images in a certain context at a certain time, and it’s like, to me, it’s a sacred place, right? But they’re getting exposed to these images that their brain can’t understand, and so they feel scared. And then they’re like, Who do I tell and then the addiction becomes more and so I talked to the kids constantly like you’re the person that you are when there’s no one around you, pull your phone out when you’re alone.

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah, right on. That’s why I knew you were going to go there, and I wasn’t looking at you like you were crazy, because it was you’re talking No, because I agree with you about the photos on social media and all of that, because it’s the same principles what we were talking with the conversations, your kids are still going to see it everywhere else, you know, but they’re going to see that you have a higher standard. And it’s also when they feel comfortable to bring those topics to you, say, Hey, I saw this today. Mom, I saw this today. Dad, you know, to encourage them and say, Hey, how’d you feel when when you saw that? You know? Well, I kind of felt good, right? I’m like, awesome. You’re supposed to feel good exactly when you see these things. This is how humans are. You know, this sexuality is part of our core beings as humans. You know, to be able to interact that way with other people. You’re supposed to feel this way when you see these things. And let me tell you the context of these, you know. And then we will get into video games. I want to hear about your documentary and everything too, in a bit. But this part about the responsible parenting, you know, that’s where I was asking is like, where do you feel like healthy sexuality is what I’m describing. I feel is what healthy sexuality is, encouraging your kids to say what it’s good to feel that way. You know that this is how you’re meant to be. And here’s the context as your parent, because when they feel comfortable talking to you about it, it’s your job as the parent to instill the values in your kids that you want them to have. So whatever that is, whatever your values are, it’s your job to instill those within them and not to shame them for feeling the way that they’re feeling when you haven’t even expressed to them what your values are yet. You know, that’s common sense. You know, if you’re if you’re abdicating your responsibility of instilling your values into your kids that you want them to have, to school, to church, to anybody else, you suck as a parent, I’m just going to give, give you the straight truth. Okay, it is your job to instill the values into your kids that you want them to have, not anybody else. 

 

Cammy Bowker  

And if they feel, if they feel like they can come talk to you, if they’re like, my values don’t match like, we have people that are coming. You know, a lot of survivors, I think of some stories as you’re talking, they tell come their parents and say, You know what, I think I’m gay, and their parents are like, get out of the house, and then they’re stuck on the street.

 

Rick Jordan  

Oh my god, yeah.

 

Cammy Bowker  

And so we also have to kind of feather the pedals and go, Okay, these are our values, and I can be here to talk to you, but make a relationship and a respectful thing, so they knew it’s a respectful relationship, so that they knew if they something went off of your values, they could still come and talk to you, because it’s going to scare them. They’re not. Going to know what to do, but time and time again, you see so many times where people end up homeless or something over a value issue in their home and then end up trafficked. So what we just need to do is just, it’s a parents. It’s up to us parents. And if you have a niece or nephew, and you know their parents are sure be that person for them. If you don’t have kids like we can be better as men and women, we can be better. We can. I mean, as we can go anything from talk to your kids tonight and say, ask them, when’s the last time you sent a nude? You’re gonna they’re gonna think you’re crazy. When’s the last time you were sent a nude? You know, all of your kids as Instagram in boxes and tick tock are full of naked boys and girls saying, hey, clipped on this picture. I love you. Algorithm guy, that’s not a person. It’s a picture of a fake picture. There’s even, like, so many ways that that could totally be a computer. Am I right? Rick, oh yeah, all the way. It’s not a person. So Hey, boys, you think you’re like, I’m so cool. There’s these ladies, these bikinis, message me. No, it’s a robot. It’s not a person, whatever like. So you if you just can get your brain to be wrapped around the fact that, Okay, boys, Instagram the algorithm. It’s a computer. It’s a robot, sending you pictures of other computers just to see who’s gonna bite, because way down the line there’s money to be made. Simple. Okay, look at from a marketing perspective, easy. So just talk to your kids about when’s last time you saw a naked person like, what today? When did you today? I promise you, they did today. If you gave your kids an exploding didn’t talk to them about things and conversations on their video games and things. But we can’t shame them and go. My husband’s never seen somebody else in there. No, they have. It’s on the thing. Let’s talk about it, whatever, and move on. Like we can still be adults here, but this not talking about a thing. It’s just like, it’s absolute madness. We’ve got to open up the conversations, and so we’re going to work hard to do that. Work hard to do that, because I think that if I know, actually, if some of these victims I’ve seen had a safe place to go, or someone in their life that they knew they mattered, they could talk to, they wouldn’t have ended up in the scenarios that they ended up in. 

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah, bingo. Now, one way you’re doing this is you’re making a documentary right now too. One way you’re getting the word out there. Tell me about this. You’re in Belize right now, right?

 

Cammy Bowker  

Yeah, yeah. So in Belize, at the moment, trying to work and have a little bit of a holiday break. But I don’t like to just have a break. Like to go work in the orphanages and aftercare centers and stuff. So I’ve been in this human trafficking fight for about five years, and I realize I’m an educator, you know? I went to University of Washington and Stanford. I did some work in Stanford studying how kids brains learn, and then I was able to help kids learn math better, even though I used to hate math, but it dawned on me when I was doing some human trafficking work. Wait a minute. Hold on, kids that keep getting in these patterns, they just don’t know that they’re a target. And it was a few years back, we were working with an organization that rescues kids like by the hundreds in Asia, and they pull up in these fields where the kids are actual slaves, and they get them out. And in that culture, they still have to actually still work as a kid, but they get them to healthy, healthier scenarios where they skip school and things, and it dawn, made this little boy like he was with his family one morning, and then the next day he was out there working. He was four years old. I’m like, What in the hell? Like, no, he was a target until it was too late. Same thing with the you know, a couple of the other cases I’ve talked to you about, they don’t know they’re a target until it’s too late. You know what we need to do? We need to help the kids in the world know that they are on this like Battlefield, and they’re just marching along. They have no way to defend themselves. They have no armor on they have no weapons at all, and they have this giant target on their back saying, I’m worth a million dollars. Because by the time they can get traffic sold for organs. It’s crazy. A traffic can make a million bucks on a person. Excuse me. And so I realized we’ve got to let these cute kids know, these sweet kids in the world that are just trying to grow up and be kids. Yeah, and nobody’s defending them. Like, we need to be better. How can we defend them? How about this? I’m just going to be a little bit better my interactions online. As a mom, I’m going to let my husband know. Hey, if you’re seeing porn, like, I’m not going to judge you, like, can we talk about it? Like, can we talk about it? Like, let’s get rid of all this judgment stuff and start defending our kids and really banding together. And so I went on a deep like research project and pulled together a really amazing team. I have the BBC correspondent from China, who actually report on the Wuhan lab as my investigative journalist. I’ve hired her on full time for the last year and a half, just studying the digital forms of trafficking for our kids. Really cool, because I’ve been watching how it goes from Hey, send me new to like, oh my gosh, it’s happening on Fortnite Roblox. It started here, starting at eight year old, six years old. And the teacher in me and the educator in me is like, everyone needs to know. And then they can start looking out, and if you and I know, and you can start looking out in your circle, then they can start looking out in their circle. And so that’s what we’re doing. We’ll be filming some of it in Ireland, most of it in Ireland. So I now have a home in the States, in Ireland, and we’re pulling cases from around the world. And just it’s not going to be by me, it’s going to be by kids, for kids, because at the end of the day, if you know I know, I say, open up these conversations. Conversations, but I can’t, I can guarantee you the answer you’re gonna get from your kids is, okay, Mom and Dad, you know what you’re talking about. And so we need to have the brain, you know, as a teacher, like, if a kid tells another kid, hey dude, like one plus ones too. Like, they’re like, What if a teacher tells them all day they won’t listen? And so there’s this peer to peer situation. And so this documentary is going to be from kids talking to other kids so they can actually understand it’s really happening. We have kids saying, hey, yeah, I was trafficked on Roblox. I was traffic on Snapchat. I was trafficked on Fortnite, or, you know, Grand Theft Auto. And I’m luckily, lucky that I’m still here to tell at the tale. Like, can we just be better? Can we start looking out for one another online. Like, if stuff looks weird, like, when I talk to teenagers, they go like, yeah, that looks off. But I don’t want to say anything. We got to take care of those barricades too, and go, You know what? I know, it feels weird to talk to your friend like, why are you posting those pictures? That seems weird. I want kids to start just having some ownership and being like, I’m gonna look out for each other. Like, yo, what’s up? Are you good? Can I help you? Because right now, everyone’s just kind of battling alone because they don’t know. And so the documentaries also combined with the curriculum to go to schools and universities and truly getting some information at parents, hands and teachers, hands all over the world, and you’ll see it on mainstream media, but we can just once we know, then we’re fine. But when you don’t, it’s all scary, like a gun, but once you know it’s not so bad.

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah, right on. When is your documentary release?

 

Cammy Bowker  

Well, we’re already in pre production right now. There’ll be eight weeks. Yeah, we’re already in it. We took a little break for Christmas, but I’ll be back in Ireland in January, so they’re already we’re already going. And then we have eight weeks of pre production, eight more weeks, 12 weeks of filming, and then 20 weeks of editing and marketing and distribution.

 

Rick Jordan  

Awesome. So like fall, winter of 2022 that’s awesome, yeah?

 

Cammy Bowker  

But just mean, depends who purchase it. Purchases it. I’m learning how film works, yeah. But we have the world’s highest documentarian of all time on this project. We have just the most phenomenal, phenomenal group, and I just feel like, God, universe, whatever has pulled together people that are passionate about saving kids, and we’re getting out of the way, and we’re letting the kids help the kids, because when we’re gone, they’re going to be there for each other still.

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah, that’s so awesome. You mentioned a couple things as you were going through that, you know, different areas that kids are are trafficked on, you know, whether it’s social media, Snapchat, I mean, this even happens on Facebook to Instagram. But you mentioned a couple other games, and I was just having a conversation with my oldest son the other day about Fortnite, and we were looking up some things. And of course, the New York Times did an article just it was about two years ago, and Fortnite was listening to Roblox, which we know of already, Minecraft, you know, a couple other games, and Fortnite was one of the ones that really kind of blew my mind a bit, because it’s made by Epic Games. And when the times reached out to these different game manufacturers, and, you know, Minecraft is made by Microsoft and Microsoft, and some of the others responded to the New York Times and said, Yes, this is what we’re doing, and here’s our roadmap to put even more safeguards in place. And it was phenomenal, right? Freaking epic. Who makes fort, and I didn’t even reply to the times with an with an answer as far as what they’re currently doing or what they intend to do, and just silence, ignored them. You know, that was, this was an article two years ago. I was like that. So how do you feel about these? Like, I don’t think that’s very good. I’m like exactly, because they’re ignoring it, you know, they don’t care about the problem. And then you look at the ways that they’re able to spend money on there, it’s just a financial gain for them. They don’t care about the damage that’s being caused. There’s a there’s a good middle ground that someone like Microsoft would have with Minecraft, you know. And as you look more into that, a lot of this happens. Yeah, they’re sending news, but a lot of these things happen when they move over to voice chat in the in these things too. And then it becomes, hey, what’s your address? Where do you want to meet me, you know? And that’s how things begin to escalate. What are some of the ways? What are some of the other areas, you know, some other games, because Roblox and Fortnite are two, two of the biggest ones. What are some others that you see so that we can let parents know, and also, what can they do about this?

 

Cammy Bowker  

Well, this isn’t going to be a popular answer, but throw it every game, the chat feature, every single game that’s online. I know that’s like the worst answer in the world, but if you think about and I’m going to go down like the pedophile route, okay, think about people that wake up with more sophisticated technology than law enforcement or people that wake up with an intent to get kids okay, they’re going to go where kids are, whatever game your kids are playing with a chat feature. I have some friends that their kids have YouTube channels where there’s chat on YouTube. There’s no platform that I know I’m not trying to sound like totally negative, but truly, there’s no platform when a kid it has open communication with the world that someone isn’t going to try to get at that child. Unfortunately, unfortunately. And there are like kids messenger or different things where it truly is just closed, and those I feel like are somewhat safe, right?

 

Rick Jordan  

Like messenger for kids from Facebook you’re talking about. Kid on Facebook.

 

Cammy Bowker  

They can literally only message like you or their cousin, and you can see it on your phone when it happens, yeah, but any game they play online, it’s not just Fortnite, it’s just Roblox. Those are just very popular games. But now, as we head into like VR and Metaverse and things, it’s gonna get worse, and again, I’m sorry to be Doomsday, but like, we have to talk, because any time your kid can go online, and you have the whole world to talk to. They are and in some regards, parents have done a great job letting their kids know you’re safe and you’re okay. The kids don’t understand that. Truly, there could be someone on the other side of that screen that might not have the best intent, and they’re so tricky and so smart that the kids are like, well, this is my friend from my class. Well, that’s what you think, but your mom’s posted your name, what you like to do, where you’re at, what school you go to, and everything else. And so now I can strike up a conversation with you and make a profile of the other kids in your class and look like the kids in your class. And you think, why would they actually do this? There’s so much well, with pedophilia, they want to get to the kid, right? But there’s so much money to be made, and so we just have to understand there’s no like, Okay, if we just only use these, or if we just only use that, it has to come back to responsible parenting, talking to your kids and letting them know. Yo, like you, I mean, five year old needs only a five year old answer. Like you said, if you’re old enough to ask the question, you get the answer, but a five year old needs a five year old answer. A 10 year old needs a 10 year old answer. But even your teenagers, you’re gonna probably not be popular, but like, you need to talk to them about things that they’re seeing and let them know, Hey, I get it. I get that I don’t understand. I understand that I don’t understand. Help me. Know, Like, can I help you? Because there’s no like, necessarily, if you use this, unless it’s offline, that someone’s not going to be able to be open to being a target.

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah, what are some? What’s some of those conversations look like? Because I know you see these all the time. That way parents can be aware, and then they can educate their kids too. If, if you start to be asked these types of questions, if you’re being asked these types of questions, this is something to look out for, you know.

 

Cammy Bowker  

Okay, so the conversation starts like this. Are you ready? Yeah, hi, hey, that’s all like, that’s all, it’s that simple. It can just be a high in your in your DMS and Instagram. It can just be a high on a game. And it’s very harmless at first, right? So the conversations are what you would think would just be a regular person. That’s what’s kind of tricky about it. Is there it just would seem like another 10 year old or 15 year old, and they just start getting comfortable talking to this person. And they found it only takes 24 hours for a kid to think that person is their friend. And honestly, it takes only 72 hours for a kid. I mean, their parents were like, you know, on them doing things, talking to them, like, like, they’re on like, making sure what they’re looking at is great. But these, these conversations can’t be We can’t let up the gas, because the research shows it only takes 72 hours for a kid to agree to meet up with someone, even if their parents are like, don’t talk to someone, don’t meet up with someone. So it’s just kind of like the kind of like the experiment when we were growing up. Don’t talk to the creepy guy in the van, and then they, you know, show the, there’s lots of them. You can look it up. Of these guys doing college research projects on this. They have great parents, their parents, you know, read your read the Bible, say the you know, say your prayers, eat your vegetables, whatever you believe, whatever, but do your homework. And then they don’t talk to the guy at the park. And then they set him in this scenario. That’s a research, you know, scenario, and this guy shows up with a puppy. The actual scenario, parents said, Don’t ever talk to someone asking to find your puppy. The kids get in the van with the guy. Yeah. So it’s like, we do this. We talk to the kids and say, the conversations start as some simple as, Hi, how are you and if it’s out there in this open, you know, internet, anybody could be doing that and saying those conversations. But what they will do is, what I’ve personally seen, is conversations starting on one platform or one gaming system and then moving off to a different you got it being as soon as they move off. But how does it start super simple. Oh, hey, why don’t we want to catch you on Facebook or WhatsApp or telegram or a signal, and the conversations move and I’ve even seen where a question is asked on an email and answered on Snapchat, asked on Facebook Messenger and answered on a different platform. So it gets kind of crazy. And our kids are very brilliant. I believe kids are so smart. Yeah, they’re so so smart. And so that’s kind of how it starts, but how it finishes is all over as soon as they move off to a different platform. Don’t you agree?

 

Rick Jordan  

Yeah, right on. And those platforms are usually, typically considered to be more private, too, like a Snapchat where you have disappearing messages or signal or or even messenger. Now, Facebook Messenger has an invisible chat feature that’s on it, but especially when they’re starting on the games, yes, with Roblox, Fortnite, Minecraft, whatever this chat says, Hi, like, just like you’re saying. And then it’s like, Hey, want to snap, you know? And that’s it. Then it’s off platform. And then that’s not something that a parent can monitor. Anymore, because there are parental monitoring features that exist within the chats of some of these games that exist, that are there, you know? And that’s where Microsoft and some others respond and said, Here’s what we’re doing, and here’s how parents can monitor things. But when they move off platform, and that’s one of the things to let your kids be aware of. If somebody asks you in a game, you know, because I’m not going to tell my kids to stop playing every single game that’s has a chat feature, right? Plus they’re almost 15. Yeah, exactly. It’s not realistic at all, you know. But if anybody ever asks you, you know, here’s some questions look out for. But if they ask you to go to a different platform, some sort of messaging app, that’s a red flag for you. Come and tell me right away and just have me look at it, and we’ll see what this person’s about. Because I want you to be safe. I don’t want anything to ever happen to you. I love you so very much. I care about you. And you can ask me any question you would ever want to ask me, and I will answer it.

 

Cammy Bowker  

And if you’ve gone down some path that you’re scared about and you’re scared to tell us about I can handle it. Yeah, right on, but I love you, and I can handle it, and we’ll get through it. 

 

Rick Jordan  

That’s responsible. Parenting is creating that so that they feel that there’s an area of no judgment, and they feel that you are the safe place. Because if they don’t feel that you’re the safe place, as a parent, they’re going to go to somebody else that they feel is a safe place, and only takes 72 hours for them to go to some place with that person they feel is the safe place.

 

Cammy Bowker  

Is their friend, you know. And a lot of conversations we see like, my parents don’t understand me, and then that predator is like, Okay, well, hey, and so just let’s be that safe place. Let’s have profiles that we’re proud of. Let’s just be better. If we could just, you know, I get a call from the Attorney General, and this happened like, what, six nine months ago in Utah, saying we have a girl that was gang raped by 30 dudes, 15 year old, in a car, naked. I know you guys have resources here. You know, through a friend of a friend, like, how can we all band together and get this girl some resources? The reason I have such a strong disdain for grown women using social media sexual symbol is because of the calls and the things that we see like that. Because we can be better. We can be a responsible parent. We can be role models without having to teach kids that they should use their body for to get approval. There’s so much more to us than that, and so that’s why I have such a disdain for it. I know on the surface it can seem really abrupt, but the reason I have such a disdain for such a disregard for safeguarding the next generations of females is I just want women to go, Wait a minute. I can be better, and I want to be better, but I can’t preach like Jesus loved the whole thing and fight against trafficking if I don’t even care about protecting my own daughters in the next generation from maybe, like, thinking about, let’s let’s be like, awesome. Like, let’s safeguard just our bodies. And so that’s another piece. When you ask me about, you know, how do you talk to your kids about sex? It’s like, Safeguard your body. Like, let’s help remember how awesome that we are. And it’s not this filtered, diluted thing that we all this in this crazy online world we live in. It actually can be amazing. Sex community is wonderful thing that someday, in the right contents, you should be able to share. But if you’ve gone down a path you’re scared about come tell us. We can talk about it. But right now, everyone is just like I use the term peddling to beat the band, like we’re just going, going, going, every parent, every everyone’s going the wrong direction, and we need to come back together, pull our families back together, like, okay, because truly, our kids, my kids, are the first generation to grow up online. And what we’re seeing is they’re getting all of the destruction left behind, and we got to try to pick up the pieces. So we just have to be better. Be freaking better. That’s it. We can all be better. And then, if you’re not better, just be better tomorrow. Like, let’s just always be patient and kind with each other and love ourselves a little bit more and go, okay, yeah, maybe I did this one thing that was bad, but I just want to be better. Or I posted this picture or sent a nude. Hey, kids, I know you did. I know you did. Like, it’s fine. Like, let’s move on and be better. Just like, I always, like you said in the beginning, I always use the the firearm analogy. Some people I work around the world and some other countries are like, Oh, you guys have guns there, and it’s very scary. But once you educate about guns, it’s not so bad. Same thing with pornography. It’s going to be there. Let’s talk about it. You’re going to see it. What do you do? Shut it off. Because I’m gonna tell you what right now, it’s heroin. It’s heroin for people’s brains. And so if you, if you had gave somebody a phone, like your kid, let’s say my mom and I knew, Okay, so remember, your kids seem pornography, or anyone, it’s like a shot of heroin, right? If you knew that, giving your kid an iPhone, if there was some button somewhere on that they could push on there somehow, some way, they’d actually get a real shot of heroin. Do you think you’d hand them that phone recklessly, like you are? Yeah, you wouldn’t. So let’s talk about it, because what they have in their hands is literally doing the same chemical reaction. And so we got to stop being scared and just talk right out and be kind and forgiving. 

 

Rick Jordan  

I cannot wait until your documentary comes out. Out, and as Awareness continues to go up, you know, I love how you’ve even changed your attitude towards rescue, because a lot of the focus I feel right now on awareness is on individuals that are trying to do things, you know, even like celebrities like I think, I think Ashton Kutcher has something big time that he’s going after right now, which is amazing. Let them go after it, right? But we’re putting the focus on the dude rather than the people that are in the shit right now, you know, and understanding the psychology of what’s going on, I appreciate you for everything that you’re doing. You brought the fire today. Cammy

 

Cammy Bowker  

Yeah, it’s hard not to. It’s hard not to.

 

Rick Jordan  

Yep, I hope parents that this encourages you too, and you can follow Cammy where she’s at, @cammybowker on Instagram. And the website is globalep.org. You’re incredible.

 

Cammy Bowker  

We have an Instagram to Global Education Month, you know. And if people are like, Well, how do I really help get involved. Start talking. Start, you know, today, talk to your husband. Your wife. Also you can, you know, help us gather supplies for victims. You can host a fundraiser. You know, we rely solely on donations, and we couldn’t do anything that we do without you guys. We’ve worked all over the world. But truly, if you want to get involved, just go to global ap.org sign up as a volunteer, and you can be an advocate in your own community. Start talking and just, really just be better. But at any time you want to just hit us up info at global ep.org send us an email, get your company involved. We have some business sponsorship packages where you can do percentage of your sales to fight trafficking, and we’ll make sure 100% of it goes to the victims.

 

Rick Jordan  

So that’s awesome. Global ep.org, thank you. Thank you. Enjoy the rest of the month. Let’s blow it up and make some people aware of what’s really going on. 

 

Cammy Bowker  

Share this video, because January is Trafficking Awareness Month, so raising awareness itself can help open up the conversations and truly help someone that you have in the circle of influence to be to prevent trafficking. So share this video. Share this podcast, global ep.org, thanks for having me, Rick.